Can there be morality without God?

stevevw said:

My point is the way you see it isn't obvious to millions of Christians. Its only the non believing people who see it that way and then I would say there were a certain amount of non believers who were fair in their judgements who would see things in their proper light by taking all things into consideration. Its normally some atheist site with titles like evil bible that make attacks and promote this type of stuff. Its as dogmatic as the religions they call evil and attack.

If God did happen to be like that and that happened to me I would be appalled and be upset. But thats the point none of the millions of Christians see it that way or feel that way about God. So are they all wrong. Normally non believers will start to also put down the Christians for being like this so they not only attack God but decent people who do a lot of good. They either say we are deluded or ignorant or live in a fantasy world and are out of touch with reality. Yet we all live a normal life and are just as real as anyone.

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It isn't obvious to them because they love and serve god, they don't want him to be a murdering rapist. That would frighten them just as much as anyone else.

A lot of Christians cause a lot of harm in our world by mentally abusing their children, supporting discriminatory laws, creating a culture that is destructive and hateful, refuse certain rights from people.

And there are good qualities to Christians too, they try to help people, love people, they are fire fighters, soldiers, police men, teachers, counselors.

Christians really think that when the bible says Jesus loves them that it's true and they really think that when it says he loves the world that it's true and they think he actually gave himself up to save it... they really believe that.

They just don't comprehend that it doesn't make sense, a god who murdered babies, burn and raped women by his decree. They don't want to see such things because Jesus is a security blanket for them.

Dave Ellis said:

Yes, but the god those people worship is not the god that's described in the bible, even if they claim it's the same being.

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God is still a God who judges and calls to account those who are sinners and dont repent. The same wrongs are still sins but now we have the sacrifice of Jesus who we can turn to for making ourselves right before God. The point is people who focus on the so called bad things God did in the old testament choose not to acknowledge all the things that were written that showed God as loving, kind and forgiving. There are many verses that reflect what Jesus was and in fact Jesus draws His teachings from this.The 2nd greatest commandment that Jesus taught which covered all the law is also in the old testament as well as many of the others but some people only see things one sided.
Leviticus 19:18
"'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

And as Jesus said,
Mark 12:31
The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

Please present your evidence. As it stands you only have unsubstantiated claims.

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Being married and being involved in religious activities are generally associated with positive effects in several areas, including physical and mental health, economic outcomes, and the process of raising children.
The Benefits from Marriage and Religion in the United States: A Comparative Analysis

Together, these studies consistently emphasize and support the notion that the cultural phenomena typically labeled as 'religion' may be understood as the product of aggregated ordinary cognition.
Exploring the natural foundations of religion. - PubMed - NCBI

I argue that religion comes nearly as naturally to us as language. The vast majority of humans are "born believers", naturally inclined to find religious claims and explanations ...
Sign in to read: The God issue: We are all born believers - 21 March 2012 - New Scientist

Spiritually augmented cognitive behavioral therapy.
SACBT can aid therapists in providing "whole person" care and achieving better global outcomes for patients with psychological illness.
Spiritually augmented cognitive behavioural therapy. - PubMed - NCBI

Harsh times can indeed be the catalyst for people to look outside of themselves and to something higher. The feeling of self-sufficiency, by contrast, can have the opposite effect.
http://www.rightreason.org/2014/religion-hard-times-and-causation/

stevevw said:

God is still a God who judges and calls to account those who are sinners and dont repent. The same wrongs are still sins but now we have the sacrifice of Jesus who we can turn to for making ourselves right before God. The point is people who focus on the so called bad things God did in the old testament choose not to acknowledge all the things that were written that showed God as loving, kind and forgiving. There are many verses that reflect what Jesus was and in fact Jesus draws His teachings from this.The 2nd greatest commandment that Jesus taught which covered all the law is also in the old testament as well as many of the others but some people only see things one sided.
Leviticus 19:18
"'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

And as Jesus said,
Mark 12:31
The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

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I find it somewhat ironic that you bring up those passages, because in the original languages, the context in which they were written is to love your fellow Jew as yourself. The English translation muddies that a bit, however the "Anyone among your people" line is the giveaway. The only people who would be reading these commands from god would be ancient Israelites.

That being said, nobody is arguing there's a few examples of god being pleasant in the Old Testament. However, I'm sure Hitler had his moments of being rather pleasant as well. That doesn't excuse his overall record.

stevevw said:

Being married and being involved in religious activities are generally associated with positive effects in several areas, including physical and mental health, economic outcomes, and the process of raising children.
The Benefits from Marriage and Religion in the United States: A Comparative Analysis

Together, these studies consistently emphasize and support the notion that the cultural phenomena typically labeled as 'religion' may be understood as the product of aggregated ordinary cognition.
Exploring the natural foundations of religion. - PubMed - NCBI

I argue that religion comes nearly as naturally to us as language. The vast majority of humans are "born believers", naturally inclined to find religious claims and explanations ...
Sign in to read: The God issue: We are all born believers - 21 March 2012 - New Scientist

Spiritually augmented cognitive behavioral therapy.
SACBT can aid therapists in providing "whole person" care and achieving better global outcomes for patients with psychological illness.
Spiritually augmented cognitive behavioural therapy. - PubMed - NCBI

Harsh times can indeed be the catalyst for people to look outside of themselves and to something higher. The feeling of self-sufficiency, by contrast, can have the opposite effect.
Religion, Hard Times and Causation

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Then can you explain why divorce rates are higher, and societal health rankings are generally lower in places that are highly religious?

Furthermore, it's demonstrable that we are not all born believers. Many people in the world have no concept of your god even into adulthood and old age.

I can show you a pile of stats and studies that show the harm of religion as well. Linking a few stats however doesn't make your case.

Lastly, and most importantly, none of this actually addresses the main point.... Whether god really exists. Even if you can show believers have some form of benefit, that doesn't mean their beliefs are based in truth.

Stevewv

Leviticus 19:18
"'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

And as Jesus said,
Mark 12:31
The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

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You have to add these scriptures to the others that say to burn women alive in Leviticus, rape women in Isaiah, Kill babies... and that we deserve to die in Romans 1. When Jesus says he loves you, he doesn't mean he won't burn you alive or kill you... so you have to consider that and take that into account the sort of love he's providing. It's not what you think...

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

It isn't obvious to them because they love and serve god, they don't want him to be a murdering rapist. That would frighten them just as much as anyone else.

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Now you are insinuating that Christians are in denial or deluded. That they dont look at things and consider all possibilities and then make a decision. How do we know that it is not you and people like you that disbelieve and want God to be bad so they see everything one sided and negative. Afterall I rarely hear any disbeliever cite anything good in the bible of which there are twice as many as the so called evil bits you cite. For a fair and balance view both should be acknowledge and credit given where credits due.

A lot of Christians cause a lot of harm in our world by mentally abusing their children, supporting discriminatory laws, creating a culture that is destructive and hateful, refuse certain rights from people.

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That is a common statemnet that is bandied around. But I dont think this is true. When you actually look at the facts about what religion does for a persons health and welfare it shows many benefits. People can inject a lot of personal feelings and not see the facts. There has been bad stuff in the past and this is being dealt with. We were all a bit ignorant and allowed a lot of stuff in families and organizations. But it happened across the board in all sectors of our societies. Religions should have known better and those people will be judged more harshly. But people just focus on the bad and dont see that religion and Christians have done a lot more good than bad.

Just because a Christian may disagree with some laws that secular society have doesn't mean they are discriminating. Christians are probably much more accepting as they help all the disadvantaged groups. They just have a different view on what is best for how we live. When a law may say its fair and OK to do what you want for the sake of rights Christians may disagree because they have a certain way of living they regard as good. In fact sometimes the laws about rights create more problems by not discerning where the line is about what is good behavior or acceptable living.

And there are good qualities to Christians too, they try to help people, love people, they are fire fighters, soldiers, police men, teachers, counselors.

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Yes I agree. There are also many who just dedicate their lives to helping others. I realize that secular society doe this also. But religious life is designed to do this all the time. Its part of a creed that should be incorporated into everyday life. We are subjected to a constant reminder about being like Jesus.

Christians really think that when the bible says Jesus loves them that it's true and they really think that when it says he loves the world that it's true and they think he actually gave himself up to save it... they really believe that.

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Of course, its testified to them in their lives everyday by the holy spirit. They just dont believe it , they also witness it.

They just don't comprehend that it doesn't make sense, a god who murdered babies, burn and raped women by his decree. They don't want to see such things because Jesus is a security blanket for them.

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But aren't you now doing their thinking and saying they must be a bit ignorant to not realize what the bible is saying. They can read the same verses as you do. They can assess all the information like you do. The difference is we will read the whole thing and see things in a broader view. We dont just go and look for the so called bad bits and stop at that.

So we can have a better and fairer look at things and then make our judgements. If we were making our judgements on ignorance than this would be reflected in our lives. But its not because we do a lot of good and show the love of God more than anything else. You will never see Christians going around doing the things you want to imply God has done in the bible.

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

Stevewv

You have to add these scriptures to the others that say to burn women alive in Leviticus, rape women in Isaiah, Kill babies... and that we deserve to die in Romans 1. When Jesus says he loves you, he doesn't mean he won't burn you alive or kill you... so you have to consider that and take that into account the sort of love he's providing. It's not what you think...

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Ok well I dont want to keep going over the same ground. If I cite a verse that shows God is loving you say that there is something else going on. So you do the same thing as you accuse me of doing. So I guess we will have to both agree to disagree. You see an evil God and I see a loving God. I hope and pray one day you will also see a loving God.

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

Stevewv

An easy explanation for this is that Christians are generally decent people they don't rape other people and they don't need the Bible to stop and the Bible is simply false

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So what about the many who do rape that are not Christians, where do they fit in. The trouble is your throwing the baby out with the bath water. Because you believe that the bible and God is evil you reject the good it can do. It is a fact that belief in a God and I believe the Christian God brings a better way of life. It brings moral accountability, better decisions about health and welfare matters and better social outcomes. Studies show that belief in religion and a God is our natural and default state and therefore something we should be encouraging as it helps us become better people. This is based on scientific studies not stats.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10637620?dopt=Abstract

stevevw said:

Ok well I dont want to keep going over the same ground. If I cite a verse that shows God is loving you say that there is something else going on. So you do the same thing as you accuse me of doing. So I guess we will have to both agree to disagree. You see an evil God and I see a loving God. I hope and pray one day you will also see a loving God.

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I don't want you to repeat it all either... believe me. I am saying that you CANNOT, YOU CANNOT love someone and then rape them and burn them and kill them. You can't.

You don't comprehend this for some reason. You try to imagine how god expresses love when he condones rape or kills someone, when what you should be doing is seeing that the TESTIMONY of love is a lie when accompanied by the ACT of RAPE.

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

Stevewv

You have to add these scriptures to the others that say to burn women alive in Leviticus, rape women in Isaiah, Kill babies... and that we deserve to die in Romans 1. When Jesus says he loves you, he doesn't mean he won't burn you alive or kill you... so you have to consider that and take that into account the sort of love he's providing. It's not what you think...

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So what about all the scriptures that say that any man who even lies with a women who is another mans wife shall be put to death let alone rape. What about when it says any man who takes advantage of a women as in rape shall be put to death. The bible is clear on this. Why would they have such strong laws for this and then allow the opposite to happen. That would undermine their own laws and destroy the society.

Rape was a penalty punishable by death in the Old Testament. In Deuteronomy 22:25-27 it is written that“if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. But you shall do nothing to the young woman; she has committed no offense punishable by death. For this case is like that of a man attacking and murdering his neighbor, because he met her in the open country, and though the betrothed young woman cried for help there was no one to rescue her.”

stevevw said:

So what about the many who do rape that are not Christians, where do they fit in. The trouble is your throwing the baby out with the bath water. Because you believe that the bible and God is evil you reject the good it can do. It is a fact that belief in a God and I believe the Christian God brings a better way of life. It brings moral accountability, better decisions about health and welfare matters and better social outcomes. Studies show that belief in religion and a God is our natural and default state and therefore something we should be encouraging as it helps us become better people. This is based on scientific studies not stats.

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That's horse poop Steve... the idea that rape is good in some circumstances and that you go to hell no matter how good you are without Jesus and that rapists can repent and then go to heaven erases all moral accountability.

The idea that your god can do anything he wants and still declare himself good by his own power removes ALL moral accountability. The idea that a person can die in place of another person removes all moral accountability. Threatening to rape, kill, burn human beings if they aren't good, removes all moral accountability.

I've already read your links and they are not what you assume them to be.

Steve,

Because the bible is a jumbled fiction... it's not supposed to make sense. It was never true and why would you expect someone who condones rape and murder to make sense anyway?

That's why it's contradictory... people who condoned rape and murder wrote the book and they were WRONG, obviously they were going to make other mistakes too, in addition to wanting people raped and killed.

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

I don't want you to repeat it all either... believe me. I am saying that you CANNOT, YOU CANNOT love someone and then rape them and burn them and kill them. You can't.

You don't comprehend this for some reason. You try to imagine how god expresses love when he condones rape or kills someone, when what you should be doing is seeing that the TESTIMONY of love is a lie when accompanied by the ACT of RAPE.

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Yes I agree you cannot love someone and then rape them. That is why it doesnt make sense to say that God allows this because He expresses His love and kindness many, many times in both the old testament and new testament. So it is out of character for Him to do so. So maybe you are the one who is not seeing that what is said in the cases where you think God is allowing rape or even promoting it is wrong. Maybe you are not reading things right in their context but only choosing to see certain verses on their own so that it paints the picture that you want to promote about God.

Maybe you have a some personal reason I dont know. But like you say a God that speaks and shows His love for people cannot do those sort of things. So I guess its back to you see things your way and I see things my way. You see an evil God and I see a loving God.

Psalm 86:15 But you, O Lord, are a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness.

Steve

Now you are insinuating that Christians are in denial or deluded

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Yes you are on denial, you've been denying that god condoned rape and that this rape was wrong for days now.

There is no fairer look to this... it is clear that he condoned rape and murder and that makes him a monster, no more no less.

stevevw

Psalm 86:15 But you, O Lord, are a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness.

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That's a testimony of him... not an act.

When god speaks and says "I'm going make people rape you" then it invalidates the testimony.

You don't look at a kind rapist and try to figure how the rape was kind... you conclude he's not kind after all.

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

That's horse poop Steve... the idea that rape is good in some circumstances and that you go to hell no matter how good you are without Jesus and that rapists can repent and then go to heaven erases all moral accountability.

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Rape is never good in any circumstances and I dont think I have ever seen a Christian think or believe that. In fact Christians help people like that all the time and in many circumstances if it wasn't for a good church or Christian person being there to help who knows what would have happened.

A rapists doesn't automatically get off free for just asking God to forgive him. The bible doesn't say this at all. It says you must be born again which is a far cry from a rapist trying to get off Scott free. Thats like a rapist saying to the judge so that the judge will let him go free "I promise to be a good boy do you believe me". The point of salvation is where a person has come to in their life where they realize they are a sinner and have done wrong before God and others. It is a point where they are humbled and on their knees. It takes a lot to get to that point and does just happen in one sudden change of mind.

The idea that your god can do anything he wants and still declare himself good by his own power removes ALL moral accountability. The idea that a person can die in place of another person removes all moral accountability. Threatening to rape, kill, burn human beings if they aren't good, removes all moral accountability.

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You really have been fed some misrepresentations. God doesn't do anything He wants and He is accountable. He is worthy and righteous and able to stand in judgement. There has to be someone above all who can do this so that justice is done. Humans are fallible and therefore cant be trusted to be above reproach. The assessment of God is done with His followers and they all agree that He is worthy. AS for Christs sacrifice this is the greatest act that could have been done for us. I guess by what you have said you dont understand this. Its got nothing to do with being a scapegoat. Its got all to do with salvation of our souls. Its got all to do with transformation and changed lives. Once again the proof is in the pudding with the many changed lives thanks to God.

I've already read your links and they are not what you assume them to be.

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Then what do the studies represent. They are only a small representation of studies. There have been a lot of study into this area recently as the indicators were there and people knew that there was more to what religion did in peoples lives. Its actually helping people and the recognition is good as it allows people to have an extra dimension to their health and welfare. Taking it away is like taking an important part of a person away and they are incomplete.

Putting aside all the studies and stats it just makes sense that if a person is following a creed that states they should help others and be good that they will have this rub off in their lives so they will help others and do good. They are subject to this teaching everyday of their lives so it has to have an influence. But its really more than this to a christian because its not just about associating with good people. Its the power of God transforming lives. But if we just look at some of the circumstantial evidence we can see the effects and changes that happen in peoples lives.

stevevw said:

So what about the many who do rape that are not Christians, where do they fit in. The trouble is your throwing the baby out with the bath water. Because you believe that the bible and God is evil you reject the good it can do. It is a fact that belief in a God and I believe the Christian God brings a better way of life. It brings moral accountability, better decisions about health and welfare matters and better social outcomes. Studies show that belief in religion and a God is our natural and default state and therefore something we should be encouraging as it helps us become better people. This is based on scientific studies not stats.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10637620?dopt=Abstract

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You're looking at this in black and white terms. We can keep the good messages, and discard the bad ones.

The problem is though, by discarding the bad or immoral aspects in the bible, we cut so much out of the book, we haven't got all that much left. Furthermore, there are no important good teachings found in the bible that didn't already exist in previous civilizations. Therefore, while the messages themselves may be good, the bible is not the original source material for those concepts.

So, that makes the bible pretty irrelevant as a source of morality. However, we can still use certain concepts within it, while discarding the majority of the book. That's the best that can be said for it.

stevevw said:

So what about all the scriptures that say that any man who even lies with a women who is another mans wife shall be put to death let alone rape. What about when it says any man who takes advantage of a women as in rape shall be put to death. The bible is clear on this. Why would they have such strong laws for this and then allow the opposite to happen. That would undermine their own laws and destroy the society.

Rape was a penalty punishable by death in the Old Testament. In Deuteronomy 22:25-27 it is written that“if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. But you shall do nothing to the young woman; she has committed no offense punishable by death. For this case is like that of a man attacking and murdering his neighbor, because he met her in the open country, and though the betrothed young woman cried for help there was no one to rescue her.”

Read more: What Does the Bible Say About Rape? How Does This Affect the Abortion Argument?
​

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You're ignoring a very important scripture however. The penalty is indeed death if you rape a woman betrothed to another man (meaning married, or pledged to be married).

However, if you rape a single woman your penalty is not death. Your penalty is to pay HER FATHER 50 shekels of silver (for essentially damaging his property) and you have to marry her by law. In essence, the biblical penalty for raping a single woman is "you break it, you bought it".

stevevw

Rape is never good in any circumstances and I dont think I have ever seen a Christian think or believe that.

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Then why did god cause these women to be raped?

A rapists doesn't automatically get off free for just asking God to forgive him. The bible doesn't say this at all. It says you must be born again which is a far cry from a rapist trying to get off Scott free.

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That's repentance... that takes about 5 minutes of soul searching a commitment to not do it again.

You really have been fed some misrepresentations. God doesn't do anything He wants and He is accountable. He is worthy and righteous and able to stand in judgement. There has to be someone above all who can do this so that justice is done.

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You keep providing paragraphs and paragraphs of nonsense no matter how simple I make it for you. No one judges the Christian god and he is a law unto himself.

Please stop using "the proof is in the pudding" phrase... you don't live any better than me and I'm not a Christian. It's so stupid that you keep repeating it. There is nothing special about how you live.

Then what do the studies represent.

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I don't have the patience to talk about that with you. No matter how simple I try to make something you provide a page in response. Most of which I can't use for anything.

Putting aside all the studies and stats it just makes sense that if a person is following a creed that states they should help others and be good that they will have this rub off in their lives so they will help others and do good. They are subject to this teaching everyday of their lives so it has to have an influence. But its really more than this to a christian because its not just about associating with good people. Its the power of God transforming lives. But if we just look at some of the circumstantial evidence we can see the effects and changes that happen in peoples lives.

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That's because like you said, anyone who commits to a rule to be good will get better at being good. You mistake this very simple endeavor for a god.

Dave Ellis said:

You're looking at this in black and white terms. We can keep the good messages, and discard the bad ones.

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No not really. It seems to be the other way around for those criticizing the bible. Thy look at the so called bad examples and dont consider any good examples. We are always hearing from skeptics and non believers about the horrible things in the bible so I am just showing that the bible is actually full of good things. Like I say why would God be often described as loving , forgiving, slow to anger, worthy, just and kind in the same bible and even the same books and chapters if He were really as bad as some make out. So maybe some have misunderstood what the so called bad things represent.

The problem is though, by discarding the bad or immoral aspects in the bible, we cut so much out of the book, we haven't got all that much left.

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I disagree the bible is full of good things and it will depend on what you consider bad. As stated before those who say the bible is bad are normally seeing things out of context or not completely reading the stories. They are just finding the so called bad bits and isolating these on their own so that they can make them look bad. But God has never done anything bad to innocent people. He has punished those who are evil and refused to repent.

There has to be an ultimate judge who can sit in judgement and deal with the evil in this world. We have seen how humans can act towards each other and we have seen what happens or what would eventuate when we dont deal with that. In some ways it is worse to not deal with the evil that people commit as it is allowing it to go on and destroy many and spread that evil to a point where all is lost and beyond hope.

We seem to think its OK when humans intervene and make their judgements about evil acts such as Hitler and the Germans or ISIS. But when it comes to God its a different story. Yet God is so much more worthy to judge as He is sinless and all knowing. So He knows the consequences for not acting and the exact state of a persons heart who refuses to repent and defy God.

Furthermore, there are no important good teachings found in the bible that didn't already exist in previous civilizations. Therefore, while the messages themselves may be good, the bible is not the original source material for those concepts.

So, that makes the bible pretty irrelevant as a source of morality. However, we can still use certain concepts within it, while discarding the majority of the book. That's the best that can be said for it.

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What do you consider already existing. Evidence shows that the earliest civilized areas that would have had written material is around the middle east anyway. In fact areas that the bible writes about like around the Tigris and Euphrates Mesopotamia, Persia and around what is now Iraqi. These are the areas that had the ancient nations of the bible so there couldn't have been anything before this.

The other thing to consider is that Gods laws are written on everyone's hearts so even though people did not have Gods written laws then they knew of them by instinct. The bible tells us that the laws of Moses were around before his time even though he had not received them. So people were able to know Gods morality but they may have expressed them in many different ways.