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Can Poetry State Fact?

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Micaiah

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Here is some poetry from the book of Job.
 

PotLuck

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The fact that Job was humbled by that poetry, which was God's intent, I'd have to say yes. If you're refering to can God actually do those things then again I'd have to say yes.

I can well imagine the reaction of Job's friends as well. All were humbled before God. God never gave Job a reason for his suffering but God gave Job a reason not to question Him.
 
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gluadys

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Can Poetry State Fact?

Micaiah said:
Here is some poetry from the book of Job.

Of course it can.

Here is a familiar bit of secular poetry.


"In Flanders fields the poppies blow
between the crosses row on row..."


Factual description of WWI cemeteries in a poetic setting.

But later on the same poem reads:

"We are the dead, to you,
from failing hands we throw,
The torch...be yours to hold it high.
If you break faith with us who die
We shall not rest though poppies grow
in Flanders fields."

Is the torch literal?

Of course not.

Same with biblical poetry. It can state fact and it can use symbols.

Let's try this passage:

Bless the LORD, O my soul.
Oh LORD my God, you are very great.
You are clothed with honour and majesty,
wrapped in light as with a garment.
You stretch out the heavens like a tent,
You set the beams of your chambers on the waters,
you make the clouds your chariot,
you ride on the wings of the wind,
you make the winds your messengers,
flame and fire are your ministers.
You set the earth on its foundations,
so that it will never be shaken.
You cover it with the deep as with a garment.
The waters stood above the mountains.
At your rebuke they flee.

Psalm 104-1-7a

What's fact and what's not in this passage? How do you tell?
 
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artybloke

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Micaiah said:
Here is some poetry from the book of Job.

Hmmm... so according to this poem, there's a great big bear in the sky that is leading its cubs, and there is a big bloke called Orion up there, who wears a belt. Yeah, sure it's stating fact...

You do realise, don't you, that the constellations are really only the shapes we impose on the universe when we look at them with the naked eye; they don't really exist that far out in space, and other cultures (the Chinese, say) would probably see different shapes? Orion and the Great Bear are both figures from Greek mythology who didn't themselves exist but whose stories were pretty familiar to the ancient world.

But the theological idea (that God sustains the heavens) is a perfectly valid and true one.
 
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Micaiah

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31"Can you bind the cluster of the Pleiades,
Or loose the belt of Orion?
Any astronomers among us who know about bound and loosed star clusters.

What are they?

Are Pleiades and Orion bound and loosed clusters respectively?

How did the author know about such things those many years ago?
 
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herev

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Micaiah said:
Any astronomers among us who know about bound and loosed star clusters.

What are they?

Are Pleiades and Orion bound and loosed clusters respectively?

How did the author know about such things those many years ago?
for those of us that are not astronomers, would you elucidate?
 
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Micaiah

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The author of this link http://www.bibletoday.com/archive/proof_text.htm believes that what Job said was correct. Orion is a loosed star cluster, and Pleiades is a bound star cluster.

How would you explain that? Another Mesopotamian legend doing the rounds at the time.
 
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artybloke

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Does anyone have a source from a respectable scientific establishment, not one of these creationist sites? I'm afraid I don't trust them not to be quote-mines, and a quick search on google for "loosed star clusters" only ever brought up creationist sites with anything approaching this definition. Anyway, the author of Job is probably going to have been aware of Babylonian/Sumerian and Egyptian astronomy, which was more advanced that some people give it credit for.
 
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Micaiah

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Those ancient civilisations can be very advanced when they need to be. I thought they were only good for making up legends and myths.

You have no problem ascribing what seems to be supernatural insight to those ancient civilisations, yet are instantly dismissive of the author gaining this insight from God.

Why should I be surprised.
 
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lucaspa

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Micaiah said:
Here is some poetry from the book of Job.
MIcaiah, what people are telling you is there are different kinds of fact or truth. The passage from Job is true in that God sustains the universe. It is not fact if you take the literal bear cubs or a literal Orion the hunter.

Once you realize that there are different types of truths, then interpreting the Bible becomes a lot simpler. For that matter, life itself becomes simpler.
 
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lucaspa

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Post hoc explanation. Muslims do this all the time trying to give authority to the Quran.
Notice that the verse in Job refers only to Orion's belt. Not the constellation.

You have to put yourself in the mindset of the people of the time. No one was going to listen if the message was about loosed and bound star clusters. No one had any conception of those. Both constellations, in Greek myth, were placed there by other gods. But Job is having those constellations made by God. This destroys the Greek version of events, doesn't it? If the constellations are created by God and not by other gods as the Greeks, or Babylonians, said, then those gods don't exist, either.

Job, IMHO, is a story about Israel and the Babylonian conquest. It is seeking theological answers for that catastrophe. Why, after all those centuries of prosperity and favor of God, did God allow such a disaster as Israel being conqueored by the Babylonians, its people carried off into captivity? Why did God desert them?

Job, along with Genesis 1, is a huge leap forward in theological thought. Always before the existence of a god was tied to the prosperity of its favored people/nation. But here Israel suffers a complete disaster, and the Jews remain faithful to God. They do not desert to the Babylonian gods, or Greek gods. Instead, people like the authors of Job and Genesis 1 reach a new insight: God isn't tied to prosperity. God can exist when bad things happen to good people. Much of the OT is about Israel coming to terms with the disaster and growing up theologically. Trying to read literal science into it ignores the real meaning and, IMO, demeans the message.

The function of the verses i
 
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lucaspa

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1. The OT is set in the best "science" of the time -- Babylonian. The Babylonian cosmology of flat earth, crystal firmament above the earth, reservoirs of water above that, stars embedded in the firmament, etc. runs thruout both the OT and gospels. The science is wrong. The theology is not. Remember, Micaiah, different types of truth.

2. We are dismissive that the insight is what you say it is. Namely, science. The insights are theological. Those insights are set in Babylonian science. But you are so focussed on the science that you miss hearing what God is saying. Tragic.
 
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