Can a Christian be a Freemason???

Wayne said:

I stand on what I just said in the previous post, concerning where the discussion stands at this point, which means I believe the case has been made that you got the wrong read on Wilmshurst. Naturally I have no problem leaving it there.

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Cool, then let's just leave it there; and let the readers conclude who got what wrong, because YOU can't do that for them or anyone else for that matter.

And it's for sure YOU won't admit anything YOU get wrong, you never have, even when you've been shown to be lying through your teeth. So yes, we'll leave it there.

Wayne said:

And it's for sure YOU won't admit anything YOU get wrong, you never have, even when you've been shown to be lying through your teeth.

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Yeah right, like the ridiculously 'outrageous lie' you've been trying to sell, that Christianity and Freemasonry teach the same things, just by different methods. That's just too laughable!



And to think that a seminary-trained pastor would believe such garbage.

Did they teach you in seminary that, whether it be the Gospels to the Christian, the Pentateuch to the Israelite, the Qu'ran to the Muslim man, or the Vedas to the Brahman, they all convey the same idea—that of the symbolism of the Divine Will of God revealed to man? Where is this taught in Christianity, pastor?

Did they teach you in seminary a nebulous emphasis on defining just who God really is? Where in Christianity are we taught that it is acceptable to view the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, along with Ahura Mazda in Zoroastrianism, and Allah of Islam, or the ever-evolving Brahma of Hinduism ALL as the Great Architect of the Universe (GAOTU)? Where is this taught in Christianity, pastor? Is this even taught by the United Methodist Church?

If you are a true Christian pastor, then you should know perfectly well that this is tantamount with mixing belief with unbelief, light with darkness, water with oil, or mixing the "one and only true God" that Jesus, His Son, spoke of with the pagan idols that the prophets of the Old Testament and the Apostle Paul warned us against. A genuine pastor would recognize that the God of the Bible is not the god of Freemasonry; and no amount of belief in the former is going to convert it into the latter, or vice versa.

These are just two glaring issues that PROVE that Freemasonry and Christianity are not compatible by any stretch of the rational imagination; because they are as far apart in agreement as heaven is in distance from hell (Capro). To even hint that they teach the same things is, not only a bald face lie, it's utterly ludicrous. But at least you're being consistent with your self-proclaimed, aged-old "habit" of stretching the truth to the limit, usually with something with an element of truth, to tell an outrageous lie, in an effort to give it a ring of credibility.

Yeah right, like the ridiculously 'outrageous lie' you've been trying to sell, that Christianity and Freemasonry teach the same things, just by different methods. That's just too laughable!

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No, what's laughable is, with your parting shot, you STILL get it wrong, accusing ME of claiming the statement you bolded, when all along all I've tried to show is that this is WILMSHURST'S position. And far from "making claims" in the first place, I was merely providing the information that REFUTES YOUR CLAIM that "Wilmshurst teaches that man becomes 'a god.'"

The REALLY laughable part of it has been, someone who professes to be telling "the truth about Freemasonry" while lying through his teeth at every opportunity, trying to cover it with more lies when caught dead to rights, and resorting to plagiarism when he can't make a case for anything any other way. And then engaging in an extended farewell that is the surest indicator you STILL have no intentions of letting it go, even after your bogus claim has been proven false.

Did they teach you in seminary that, whether it be the Gospels to the Christian, the Pentateuch to the Israelite, the Koran to the Muslim man, or the Vedas to the Brahman, they all convey the same idea—that of the symbolism of the Divine Will of God revealed to man? Where is this taught in Christianity, pastor?

Did they teach you in seminary a nebulous emphasis on defining just who God is? Where in Christianity are we taught that it is acceptable to view the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, along with Ahura Mazda in Zoroastrianism, and Allah of Islam, or the ever-evolving Brahma of Hinduism ALL as the Great Architect of the Universe? If you are a true Christian pastor, then you should know perfectly well that this is tantamount with mixing belief with unbelief, or mixing the "one and only true God" that Jesus spoke of with the pagan idols that the Apostle Paul warned against. A genuine pastor would recognize that the God of the Bible is not the god of Freemasonry; and no amount of belief in the latter is going to convert it into the former, or vice versa.

Those are just two glaring issues that PROVE that Freemasonry and Christianity are not compatible by any stretch of the rational imagination; because they are as far apart in agreement as heaven is in distance from hell (Capro). To even hint that they teach the same things is, not only a bald face lie, it's utterly ludicrous. But at least you're being consistent with your self-proclaimed, aged-old "habit" of stretching the truth to the limit, usually with something with an element of truth, to tell an outrageous lie, in an effort to give it a ring of credibility.

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"Compatibility," of course, having nothing to do with the discussion we were just having. This is just a straw man parting shot, sour grapes at failing to prove your ridiculous notion you had of Wilmshurst. I don't care whether you agree with Wilmshurst or not, that has not been a point of contention at all. I've simply been trying to ensure that you at least do not succeed in misrepresenting his position, which you were clearly trying to do.

As far as I am concerned you guys can leave it there, my view is dont go anywhere near churches and clergy who are freemasons.

In all of this, the Lord had to remind me once again:

Don’t get involved in foolish, ignorant arguments that only start fights. Why? Because a servant of the Lord must not quarrel, but must be kind to everyone, be able to teach, and be patient with difficult people. Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will learn the truth. Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil’s trap. For they have been held captive by Satan to do whatever he wants. -- 2 Timothy 2:23-26

O.F.F. said:

In all of this, the Lord had to remind me once again:

Don’t get involved in foolish, ignorant arguments that only start fights. Why? Because a servant of the Lord must not quarrel, but must be kind to everyone, be able to teach, and be patient with difficult people. Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will learn the truth. Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil’s trap. For they have been held captive by Satan to do whatever he wants. -- 2 Timothy 2:23-26

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It has been established for some time now, that Christian Masons do not "oppose the truth." Even our accusers are aware of it, and try to phrase their claims in terms of what "non-Christian Masons" do, or by characterizing matters in terms of what "Muslim Masons" or "Hindu Masons" do. So I find it more than a little disingenuous to be posting verses about "those who oppose the truth," since we have not had any indication of anything other than Christian Masons posting here.

I mean, it's one thing to hold an opinion strongly and be adamant in debate about it. But it's quite another when you know someone is not telling the truth, and you know that they themselves are aware they are not telling the truth--and then on top of that, to come here posting verses about "those who oppose the truth???"

For that reason, I was reminded of a quite different verse: "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed." (James 5:16)

It has been established for some time now, that Christian Masons do not "oppose the truth."

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it has been established that they do.

FACT 1: "Christian" Masons oppose the truth because of the Masonic view that, whether it be the Gospels to the Christian, the Pentateuch to the Israelite, the Koran to the Muslim man, or the Vedas to the Brahman, they all convey the same idea—that of the symbolism of the Divine Will of God revealed to man.

FACT 2: "Christian" Masons oppose the truth because of Freemasonry's nebulous emphasis on defining just who God is; whether it be the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, or Ahura Mazda in Zoroastrianism, Allah of Islam, or the ever-evolving Brahma of Hinduism, Masonically they ALL represent the Great Architect of the Universe (GAOTU).

To deny these two Masonic facts, is to deny the truth. And those "Christian" Masons that deny these facts know that they themselves are aware they are not telling the truth. For that reason, those who come here denying the allegation that they "oppose the truth" simply underscore the fact that they do.

O.F.F. said:

FACT 1: "Christian" Masons oppose the truth because of the Masonic view that, whether it be the Gospels to the Christian, the Pentateuch to the Israelite, the Koran to the Muslim man, or the Vedas to the Brahman, they all convey the same idea—that of the symbolism of the Divine Will of God revealed to man.

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Fact 1 fails on the very point you tried to convey with it: the Gospels "TO THE CHRISTIAN; the Koran "TO THE MUSLIM"; the Vedas "TO THE BRAHMIN." Since I am only a Christian, and not a Muslim or a Brahmin, the only thing you just said in that statement that applies to me is the first part. To the Christian, yes, the Gospels contain the Divine Will. I have never met a Christian Mason who did not agree. And as you can see (or at least I hope you can, since it would be a pretty convoluted-thinking Christian who would see belief in the Gospels as "opposed to the truth"), this is not "opposed to the truth."

FACT 2: "Christian" Masons oppose the truth because of Freemasonry's nebulous emphasis on defining just who God is; whether it be the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, or Ahura Mazda in Zoroastrianism, Allah of Islam, or the ever-evolving Brahma of Hinduism, Masonically they ALL represent the Great Architect of the Universe (GAOTU).

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Thank you for affirming again that Christian Masons are not opposed to the truth, by your very choice of words: "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob," as opposed to Ahura Mazda "IN ZOROASTRIANISM," Allah "OF ISLAM," Brahma OF "HINDUISM." Since the Christian Mason is NOT "in Zoroastrianism, NOT "of Islam," and NOT "of Hinduism," the Christian Mason cannot therefore be said to be "opposed to the truth."

To deny these two Masonic facts, is to deny the truth. And those "Christian" Masons that deny these facts know that they themselves are aware they are not telling the truth. For that reason, those who come here denying the allegation that they "oppose the truth" simply underscore the fact that they do.

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Well, as anyone can see, not only do they NOT "oppose the truth," your own accusations are the surest PROOF they do not. You have tried to make Masons out to be of some other religion than Christianity who are not.

And now it's my turn:

FACT 1: You accused me of “changing” a dictionary definition from a link someone else posted. That accusation was proven false.

FACT 2: You claimed you have “never said that Masons will go to hell.” That accusation was also proven false, by your own words.

FACT 3: You claimed never to have seen a Grand Lodge list of VSL’s that are the only ones considered acceptable for use as a substitute if the candidate chooses. That claim was not only shown to be false, but to have been initially posted by YOU.

FACT 4: You offered a supposed citation of a well-known Pike quote, “Masonry, like all other religions,” accompanied by an insistence that the “all other” was the key point of the sentence. That “quote” was shown to have been falsified.

FACT 5: You attacked the idea of referring to the Bible as a symbol, calling it “ridicule.” That accusation was shown to be false, by citing from several Christian sources which ALSO refer to it as a symbol.

FACT 6: You claimed that nowhere in Masonry is any Mason told to believe in the Bible or any part of it. This was shown to be a false claim.

FACT 7: You tried to claim that I address Masonry as I do solely because “most of my livelihood” comes from Masons, adding that “90-95% of Methodists are Masons.” This was refuted by showing that even if every Mason in the U.S. were a Methodist, they would still constitute only one person out of every five people in U.S. Methodist churches.

FACT 8: You quoted material ruminating on something about Dionysius, and falsely tried to attribute it to SC by placing it alongside a citation from Ahiman Rezon.

FACT 9: You went off on a bender about the “ancient mysteries,” trying to attribute it to paganism, all the while ignoring the fact that every single Masonic author you cited, were unanimous in attributing the line of descent to Christianity, with Augustine as the precedent.

FACT 10: You cited materials which listed opinions from pseudo-Masonry and tried to pass it off as “Masonic” quotes. In doing so, you also plagiarized quite a substantial amount of material.

FACT 11: Then, after you had been caught in the very act, you tried to cover it up by editing the post and lying about it, claiming it had been there all along.

FACT 12: You posted material which you tried to use to make a claim of Hinduism being found in rituals in India, a claim which was refuted by citing from the GL of India website showing that their rituals reference the Bible as the “Great Light” of Masonry, same as ours do, along with other comparable citations.

FACT 13: You tried to make the same claim for “Muslim countries”’; but you never came across with a source for your claims on this one, despite it being repeatedly requested of you.

FACT 14: You tried to claim that the biblical references I posted from our monitor, did not actually derive from the Bible. This I refuted by posting the materials side by side with the biblical references, so you could easily see the comparison.

FACT 15: You tried to claim that Bible references to chapter and verse never appear in Masonic rituals and monitorial materials. This I easily refuted by quoting more extensively and including some of the longer references I had omitted originally.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. All of these, and many other incidents that could be included but were not, combine to offer the surest proof that YOU are "opposed to the truth"--since you obviously have such difficulty with the concept.

Naturally, I realize when Paul wrote those words about being "opposed to the truth," he was not using it in this sense. But why is it someone claiming to be in "Christian ministry," and supposedly presenting "the truth" about Freemasonry, seems to be so adamantly "opposed to telling the truth?"

Anyone can see that there has been a regular pattern here of you not telling the truth, and in some instances, brazenly so, by lying even after caught at it. So there's no way you can deny being "opposed to telling the truth."

That's why it has such a hollow ring to it when you start citing verses about "being opposed to the truth." Actions always speak louder than words, and yours speak so loudly that what you say gets drowned out completely. And the unbelievable thing is, that even after all that you dare to mock by your use of "Christian."

Wayne said:

Fact 1 fails on the very point you tried to convey with it: the Gospels "TO THE CHRISTIAN; the Koran "TO THE MUSLIM"; the Vedas "TO THE BRAHMIN." Since I am only a Christian, and not a Muslim or a Brahmin, the only thing you just said in that statement that applies to me is the first part.

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YOU are NOT only a professing "Christian" you are a Mason, and YOU know darn well I was talking about the that part that applies to ALL MASONS, which is "they all convey the same idea—that of the symbolism of the Divine Will of God revealed to man." So YOU have AGAIN been PROVEN to be a LIAR.

Thank you for affirming again that Christian Masons are not opposed to the truth, by your very choice of words: "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob," as opposed to Ahura Mazda "IN ZOROASTRIANISM," Allah "OF ISLAM," Brahma OF "HINDUISM." Since the Christian Mason is NOT "in Zoroastrianism, NOT "of Islam," and NOT "of Hinduism," the Christian Mason cannot therefore be said to be "opposed to the truth."

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Another crock of BULL! Again, YOU know darn well I was talking about the that part that applies to ALL MASONS, which is ALL concepts of "God" Masonically represent the Great Architect of the Universe (GAOTU). So YOU have been CAUGHT telling ANOTHER LIE.

Therefore, as it has already been shown by your own words, YOU ARE JUST A LYING UMC PREACHER AND THE TRUTH JUST ISN'T IN YOU.

There may very well be professing "Christian" Masons, Muslim Masons, as well as Hindu and Buddhists Masons, etc. But YOU know darn well, there is NO SUCH THING as a "Christian," Islamic, Zoroastrian, or Hindu, etc. Grand Lodge. There are many Grand Lodges from many countries around the world, which is how charters to function as such are written (i.e. the United Grand Lodge of England, the Grand Lodge of South Carolina, the Grand Lodge of India, the Grand Lodge of Indiana, the Grand Lodge of Turkey, etc.). But there is ONLY ONE fraternity called Freemasonry. It's principles, by which EVERY Mason vows, apply to ALL MASONS, regardless of their religious persuasion or their country of origin. A Mason who claims to be a "Christian" cannot escape from the principles of Freemasonry, just because some of them don't suit "his" religious beliefs. The ONLY way to separate yourself from Masonic principles is to separate yourself from Freemasonry, entirely.

As long as you remain a Mason, and "profess" to be a Christian, you stand in compromise to our faith, opposing the truth and you are a disgrace as a pastor.

O.F.F. said:

YOU are NOT only a professing "Christian" you are a Mason, and YOU know darn well I was talking about the that part that applies to ALL MASONS, which is "they all convey the same idea—that of the symbolism of the Divine Will of God revealed to man." So YOU have AGAIN been PROVEN to be a LIAR.

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You've proven nothing with this. Have you forgotten how you just interpreted it for us in your previous post? There you said, in your "Fact One":

O.F.F. said:

"Christian" Masons oppose the truth because of the Masonic view that, whether it be the Gospels to the Christian, the Pentateuch to the Israelite, the Koran to the Muslim man, or the Vedas to the Brahman, they all convey the same idea—that of the symbolism of the Divine Will of God revealed to man.

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In or out of the lodge, it's all the same, Michael. You said it yourself: the MASONIC VIEW on the matter is, the divine will is seen by the Christian to be the Gospels (though I would disagree with you on that point, since it is the WHOLE Bible, and not just the Gospels); the divine will is seen by the Brahmin to be the Vedas; the divine will is seen by the Muslim to be the Koran; and the divine will is seen by the Israelite to be the Pentateuch or Torah.

Once again, the only proven liar around here is you. And you make a poor one at best, since the old saying holds true, that to be a good liar, you need a good memory. Your memory failed you on this one, because you even forgot from one post to the next what you had already said.

[QUOTEP=O.F.F.]Another crock of BULL! Again, YOU know darn well I was talking about the that part that applies to ALL MASONS, which is ALL concepts of "God" Masonically represent the Great Architect of the Universe (GAOTU). So YOU have been CAUGHT telling ANOTHER LIE.[/quote]

It's not a lie, Michael, it is your mistaken notion about the term. Masonry is apprehended and applied individually, not collectively. The collective stuff is what is done by religions, that's one of the distinctives of Masonry that makes it NOT a religion, despite the lie that so many antimasons tell to the contrary.

Besides, you've already been shown, that the Christian use of "God" is no different. To those of other religions it can mean their god, just the same as GAOTU. Yet I don't see you doing all the flip-flops and stretches to vilify THAT word, despite the principle being exactly the same principle you accuse: a generic word used by Christians that can potentially mean any other god to any person of another religion.

So until you can reconcile that problem for us, you are inconsistent on this point. To be consistent, you need to either drop the argument, or add to your repertoire an argument vilifying Christians who use the generic word "God."

O.F.F. said:

There may very well be professing "Christian" Masons, Muslim Masons, as well as Hindu and Buddhists Masons, etc. But YOU know darn well, there is NO SUCH THING as a "Christian," Islamic, Zoroastrian, or Hindu, etc. Grand Lodge.

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BRILLIANT! Thanks, Michael, for refuting what I never said in the first place. And SINCE there is NO SUCH THING as these lodges you described, and SINCE THERE ARE Christian Masons, Muslim Masons, etc., then it stands to reason that the term is perceived individually and not collectively, just as I stated. Keep up the good work, your own words are proving to be the best refutation of your own claims.

O.F.F. said:

There are many Grand Lodges from many countries around the world, which is how charters to function as such are written (i.e. the United Grand Lodge of England, the Grand Lodge of South Carolina, the Grand Lodge of India, the Grand Lodge of Indiana, the Grand Lodge of Turkey, etc.). But there is ONLY ONE fraternity called Freemasonry. It's principles, by which EVERY Mason vows, apply to ALL MASONS, regardless of their religious persuasion or their country of origin. A Mason who claims to be a "Christian" cannot escape from the principles of Freemasonry, just because some of them don't suit "his" religious beliefs

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.

I for one see no Masonic principle that says, "If a Muslim Mason living halfway around the world chooses to believe in Allah and the Koran, you as a Christian Mason are bound by HIS beliefs rather than your own. This is just pure nonsense on your part.

And the sheer beauty of watching you go into conniptions over this point after some of your earlier arguments, is interesting too. After all, it wasn't that many posts ago, your argument went quite to the contrary. In fact, I remember laughing at the time I saw it, but said nothing, because I immediately knew I would be seeing the diametric opposite of it before very long and could use it to better advantage. So I now call it to your attention:

The only place Masonic ritual makes these specific references, is where the Bible is opened for each degree, only in US lodges where the predominant religion of the country is Christian, and the predominant VSL is the Holy Bible. (Christianforums, "Can a Christian be a Freemason?" Post #949)

The VSL (i.e. Volume of Sacred Law) in Freemasonry is that book deemed "sacred" by the predominant religion of the country in which a Grand Lodge presides. (Post #953)

All you have shown comes from Masonic rituals in US lodges -- a Christian country -- but you CANNOT use that to try to make a CLAIM that it exist in every ritual in ALL of Masonry!!!! (Post #961)

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That third one was a riot, too, considering how many times you and your buddy W.D. have bent over backwards INSISTING that "America is NOT a Christian country!" That one had me LM euphemizing BO for sure.

But what you make clear on this point more than anything else is, just how far you will go to pursue your chosen course of illogic, backed up with double standard arguments.

In that argument, I was pointing out for you, from the Grand Lodge of India website, discussions in which an Indian Mason was referring to the Bible as the "Great Light of Masonry," and insisting that every degree in Masonry was founded upon the Bible.

YOUR RESPONSE? "But what you have shown only occurs in a Christian country."

In this argument, I have pointed out that the principles of Masonry, particularly the ones you selectively chose for your "Fact One" and "Fact Two," are matters that are individually apprehended rather than collectively.

YOUR RESPONSE? "The principles of Masonry apply to ALL Masons, regardless of their religion or their country of origin."

Now THERE'S a double standard for you if I ever saw one!

"Oh, but that's only true in U.S. Lodges, a Christian country."
"Oh, but that has to be true EVERYWHERE, and REGARDLESS of national origin."

Do us a favor, Michael, and when you get this nonsense sorted out to where it has any kind of logical consistency to it, get back with us and let us know which way you decided you'd rather have the twig bent, so we can "govern ourselves accordingly," okay?

O.F.F. said:

As long as you remain a Mason, and "profess" to be a Christian, you stand in compromise to our faith, opposing the truth and you are a disgrace as a pastor.

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I haven't compromised anything. You don't know what you're talking about, and you never even met me. You are making subjective value claims based on minimal input. Some pastor somewhere along the line stepped on your toes a little too hard and you still hold a grudge. Go find him and spew all your hatefulness to him and get it out of your system for good before it becomes the end of you.

O.F.F. said:

The ONLY way to separate yourself from Masonic principles is to separate yourself from Freemasonry, entirely.

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Masonry's principles come straight from the Bible. Even the Grand Lodge of India website declares that the Bible is the great light of Masonry, contrary to your fabricated idea that it says anything different there than it does in our lodges:

It is interesting to note that in every Degree of Freemasonry the words and incidents associated with them are found in the bible which is considered to be the Volume of the Sacred Law by Freemasons, though when any person who does not have faith in the Bible takes his Oath of Secrecy on the Volume considered by him to be sacred, and an oath taken on it makes it binding upon him.

The Building of the Holy Temple is recorded in great detail in the Volume of the Sacred Law, i.e. in the Old Testament of the Bible. As I have said above every Degree in Freemasonry is derived from some part of the Bible. It includes the New Testament also. ("Some Thoughts on Freemasonry," By W. Bro. Rev. P. A. KRISHNASWAMI, M.A. P.A.G. Chap., District Grand Secretary, District Grand Lodge of Bengal)

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Last time I checked, it was not considered a good thing for a Christian to separate himself from biblical principles. In fact, it works quite the opposite, as I recall. I have to figure adhering to biblical principles is a good thing for a Christian man, whether in or outside the lodge.

Your denial doesn't change anything. All I need to know is that you are a Mason hiding behind the facade of "Christian pastor;" making you false teacher, a heretic and a foolishly blinded, anti-christ servant of the devil. Because as far as I am concerned, from what I ascertain from the Bible relative to what I know as a former Mason, no genuine Christian pastor would become or remain a Mason. Let me illustrate:

Anti-Christ/Masons who claim to be a "Christian pastor" =

O.F.F. said:

. . .from what I ascertain from the Bible relative to what I know as a former Mason. . .

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"What you ascertain from your Bible" doesn't amount to much. You can't even recognize it when you see it in front of you, obviously, because you deny that Masonry's principles are founded on it. And you don't seem to have ever found the ninth commandment in your reading--either that or you just never concerned yourself with it very much.

The fact that you have totally ignored the facts recently listed, and the fact that you have neither challenged nor even acknowledged them in the least, speaks volumes about you. That, along with the level of your current posts, speaks loudly enough that I must change a standing invitation I have extended to you in the past and left open for quite some time. Occasionally in the past you would mention the possibility of coming and visiting at the church here. I'm afraid I must change my standing policy of stating you would be welcome. After this recent exchange, I'm sorry, but the depth of the depravity appears to go much deeper with you than I previously thought. These are good people here, and they do not need your kind of influence brought in here.

I guess the straw that pushed it over the edge was when you tried to deny the instance of plagiarism by going back and editing the post afterward and telling a bald-faced lie about it. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone professing faith in Christ who exhibits any less indication of it in their actions. You need to find the Lord, and you need to make it first priority. You are in dire need of repentance, I pray you find it, and leave you to the Lord Jesus Christ, who does miracles with even the roughest raw materials.

O.F.F. said:

. . . servant of the devil

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Strange thing for YOU to be tossing out, when this is the thing that should give you the most concern:

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. (John 8:44)

Wayne said:

And you don't seem to have ever found the ninth commandment in your reading--either that or you just never concerned yourself with it very much.

The fact that you have totally ignored the facts recently listed, ... I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone professing faith in Christ who exhibits any less indication of it in their actions. You need to find the Lord, and you need to make it first priority. You are in dire need of repentance...

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You got a lot of nerve to judge me based upon the Ninth Commandment, when really the only way a professing "Christian" can be a Mason is to blatantly violate the First. And your denial of this fact, along with all the evidence shown to you here and elsewhere for the past six years, shows that you violate the Ninth as well; and Lord knows what other commandments you may be continuing to break.

Although you have convinced every Christian here, and everywhere else you defend the Masonic faith, that in doing so it makes you a pseudo-pastor rather than an authentic one, if the Lord were truly a priority in your life you would have NEVER stepped foot into a Masonic Lodge. Nevertheless, it is YOU who are in dire need of repentance; because since you do hold the title "pastor" you are biblically held to a much higher standard.

James 3:1 (Amplified Bible)

NOT MANY [of you] should become (pastors) teachers (self-constituted censors and reprovers of others), my brethren, for you know that we [pastors/teachers] will be judged by a higher standard and with greater severity [than other people; thus we assume the greater accountability and the more condemnation]. (emphasis added)

O.F.F. said:

You got a lot of nerve to judge me based upon the Ninth Commandment, when really the only way a professing "Christian" can be a Mason is to blatantly violate the First. And your denial of this fact, along with all the evidence shown to you here and elsewhere for the past six years, shows that you violate the Ninth as well; and Lord knows what other commandments you may be continuing to break.

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You've got even more nerve trying to turn this on its head to make your own prevarications somehow accrue to my account. Nobody's "judging" you, I was simply responding in kind to the tone of your comments to me. If you don't like the tone, then I suggest you tone it down a notch yourself.

All we see this side of eternity is and will always be imperfect in scope, because we are limited and finite creatures, while only God can see the heart. All I know is what can be seen from the outside. As the apostle Paul wrote, though, "We remain persuaded better things of you, though we thus speak." I can only speak what the Lord lays on my heart, and thus deliver myself on the only part I have been given in the matter. And as always, I do so in recognition and concern for the fact of a quickly-coming and inevitable eternity. I do know that "he who confesses and forsakes his sin shall find mercy," but those who persist in them and become hardened, God will judge. Whatever course you choose on the matter put before you is in your hands, not mine. "Kill the messenger" never was a valid response.

You have repeatedly tried to turn this back to point at me, but the attempts have been feeble at best, and have been mostly retaliatory, and more along the line of trying to shake this off and disregard it. You have not shown one instance in which I have not posted in sincerity--unlike yourself, particularly in the case of #11 on the list, when you knew what you spoke was a lie before it even came off your fingertips.

As for "violating the First," you know better even though you characterize it that way, because you know good and well the circumstances of my joining. Certainly I understand your objections to every mention of it, because I myself rejected it for 12 years before taking Him seriously on the matter. My joining was the surest indication of OBEDIENCE to the First commandment. It is YOU who have continually tried to insist that I VIOLATE that commandment by going against the Lord Jesus Christ whose expressed will to me I followed on the matter. I realize that the very mention of it sticks in yer craw and makes you sputter out all kinds of things, but I can't help what you don't like.

O.F.F. said:

Although you have convinced every Christian here, and everywhere else you defend the Masonic faith, that in doing so it makes you a pseudo-pastor rather than an authentic one, if the Lord were truly a priority in your life you would have NEVER stepped foot into a Masonic Lodge

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.

The messages I get by PM tell quite a different story, and they come from people who tend to preface their remarks with things like "Even though I would not join a lodge myself," before they give kudos for some of my comments in our exchanges. As for my calling, believe me, after running from it for 14 years I found out the hard way, running is not an option when the "Hound of Heaven," as C.S. Lewis referred to Him, comes collecting His due. If it were simply a matter of my own volition, I would have left this profession long ago. It is the First Commandment claim that operates in tandem with that calling, that holds me here.

O.F.F. said:

Nevertheless, it is YOU who are in dire need of repentance; because since you do hold the title "pastor" you are biblically held to a much higher standard.

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How long are you going to keep pursuing this lame attempt at self-justification, by which you use this statement as an excuse to hold yourself to such a lower standard that you can flagrantly disregard a commandment of God?

And why is it you think I need to "repent" for doing as the Lord has commanded ME? I've told you before, He led me in, He will have to be the one who leads me out. Last time I checked, you weren't Him--as if I HAD to check at all.

If you have anything else to say to topic, I will gladly engage you in it if you wish to continue. But this whole ad hominem sidetrack will no longer be indulged for your twisted idea of pleasure.

Just in case anyone is interested in another board where the incompatibility of Freemasonry and Christianity is being discussed, go to the following link:

CARM's New Freemasonry Discussion Board

A recent member, and brother in the Lord, has joined there by the name of Skip Sampson. And when it comes to defending Biblical Christianity vs. Freemasonry, he is like the Samson of the Bible, and the likes of Masons like "rev" Wayne are like the Philistines he crushed. And, of course, Wayne knows from the past that Skip has done, and can do, a much better job at crushing him on this topic than I can. It would be interesting to see if Wayne goes there to try and refute Skip's arguments.

A recent member, and brother in the Lord, has joined there by the name of Skip Sampson.

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Wow, and just when I thought CARM's forums couldn't possibly get any worse!

And when it comes to defending Biblical Christianity vs. Freemasonry, he is like the Samson of the Bible,

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Sounds like you've got him confused with Goliath. Skippy never was like Samson at all, he has always preferred the safety of numbers, and sticks to boards where the antimason to Mason ratio is overwhelmingly in favor of the anti's. Not that I haven't suspected his presence elsewhere, he has preferred remaining in hiding if he has been.

Skippy's biblical illiteracy is surpassed only by yours. I haven't forgotten the ridiculous showing he put in over at thelodgeroom.UK boards. I'm surprised he'd even show up anywhere, he's embarrassed himself so many times.

But I'm even more surprised he was even able to register, with their new "No jerks allowed" policies.

It would be interesting to see if Wayne goes there to try and refute Skip's arguments.

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The problem with CARM was, every new poster that came along seemed to be an antimason, and not only that, their posts had remarkable similarities to all the ones that came before them. I got the distinct impression I was talking to the same people all over again all the time, with a different mask. At least on this forum we do see a NEW face once in a while, and along with it, some who are not cut of the same cloth.

And there's none of the nonsense going on at this forum, like that which runs rampant over there, of non-Masons (or perhaps ex-Masons) skulking around posing as Masons, or people stealing Masons' usernames and posting in the pretense of being who they are not, posting phony "confessions" that are nothing but lies.

So thanks, but no thanks, I won't be going there any time soon. It would have been absurd enough to remain there, going back would be beyond absurd. In fact, going back there would only happen under one condition, and that would be the same condition that would have to transpire before I'd go back to the EMFJ boards. But I've heard nothing about it freezing over yet, and a snowball still doesn't have a chance there, so it'll be awhile yet.

And there's none of the nonsense going on at this forum, like that which runs rampant over there, of non-Masons (or perhaps ex-Masons) skulking around posing as Masons, or people stealing Masons' usernames and posting in the pretense of being who they are not, posting phony "confessions" that are nothing but lies.

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This is a bald-faced LIE and YOU know it! It's virtually impossible for someone to use another members user name any more there, than it is for someone to use someone's user name here; unless they have the person's PASSWORD TOO. It was YOU who where caught there posting under TWO user names, and when the male bovine excrement hit the fan, it was YOU who went crying "someone here is posting as someone who they are not," then it was YOU who posted a phony "confession" that was nothing but another Wayne Robert Major LIE! So don't have me post here the sequence of posts/events that occurred there that PROVE what I am saying is true. So you best leave this one alone or you WILL embarrass yourself.

So thanks, but no thanks, I won't be going there any time soon. It would have been absurd enough to remain there, going back would be beyond absurd. In fact, going back there would only happen under one condition, and that would be the same condition that would have to transpire before I'd go back to the EMFJ boards. But I've heard nothing about it freezing over yet, and a snowball still doesn't have a chance there, so it'll be awhile yet.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead and hide under your little skirt (Masonic Apron) like the cowardly little 'sissy' that you are. In the meantime, perhaps I will invite him here to show the weaknesses in your futile attempt to defend the indefensible, or excuse the inexcusable.