Can a Christian be a Freemason???

Rev Wayne · Apr 2, 2010

O.F.F. said:
. . .They did the best they could with what they had, and they did very well indeed. Their administrative skills alone. . .

Seems to me the praise was reserved in this instance, for their administrative skills, not for their esotericism. You, of course, will underline and bold print to your heart's content to try to make it appear otherwise; but we already HAVE the statement from Morris about the "mysteries" nonsense:

The real test of Masonic acceptance of the Ancient Mystery theories of Mackey and Pike is to study the writings of serious Masonic historians from the authentic school, not those from the romantic period. The publications of Quatuor Coronati Lodge No. 2076, the American Lodge of Research, the Texas Lodge of Research, the Ohio Chapter of Research, and others show that these absurd theories have been politely ignored. They have died the quiet death they deserved. The pathetic irony is that only one group today believes the tall tales of Mackey and Pike--not the Grand Lodges, not the Scottish Rite, but the anti-Masons. Our enemies are so anxious to believe the worst about us, they rush to embrace hypotheses long since abandoned, if ever widely accepted. Whether they are incompetent as historians or simply facile liars is for others to decide.

Even in the piece you quoted, if one does not have a natural bias as you automatically do, it can easily be seen that Morris did not back off this statement in the least. His concluding line in YOUR quote was:

It is not “political correctness” to differ with them or to insist that their conclusions be reexamined in the light of the best historical evidence.

In other words, he still says he differs with them, and still insists that their conclusions need to be reexamined in the light of the best historical evidence, namely Gould's history, to which he had originally referred. It seems all Mr. Morris was doing was acknowledging that to some people they are not "tall tales," and making a frank admission that, as worded, it was not the best choice. I do not see where he backed off any of the rest of his comments. The other piece I cited, he made no reference to in your citation, so I assume it stands as well:

The record shows that otherwise respected Masonic scholars of the middle to late 1800s, such as Albert Mackey, Albert Pike, and their followers, had ideas about the origins of Masonry that are discredited today. No one, in fact, knows where our gentle Craft began, but Pike and Mackey were strong proponents of the theory Masonry was descended from the Ancient Mysteries and various forms of pagan worship. While their ideas were fashionable in Masonic circles a century ago, no serious Masonic student takes seriously these parts of their writings.

O.F.F. said:
In fact, I may have shared this with you before, but if so, it is certainly worth revisiting.

It certainly is, but only to refute it and show once again, just as I did the last time you posted it, why it does not even qualify as a counter to what I posted, being of a totally different sort.

Where in this did you think you saw any Masonic ritual? Did you totally blow by my main point, or what?? I stated:

The rituals are saturated with Bible content. Any Mason familiar with the Bible can’t miss it:. . .

. . .The Bible content and basis is unmistakable and undeniable. When I have presented this in the past and have invited anyone to cite from the same or comparable materals, anywhere that would confirm what they claim as "paganism," it has met with a decidedly stony silence.

What you just posted does not answer my challenge at all, for two quite simple and undeniable reasons:

(1) What you quoted is not ritual.
(2) It does not qualify as "the same or comparable materials."

Produce something from Masonic ritual such as was posted from Ahiman Rezon, such as opening or closing prayers, material from one of the special ceremonies, content from the Blue Degree work, etc., and get back with me, and of course we can then consider it.

But as it stands, this was a poor effort on your part to produce a response to my post as it was presented.

O.F.F. said:
So the "fixation" as you put it, is not only with the Scottish Rite, but the Blue Lodge apparently has it too!

The fixation of Scottish Rite on the esoteric is its own confirmation, you don't have to read much of that stuff to get the picture where they're concerned.

But you have posted nothing different than the first time around with these lists, so my response now is as it was then:

There is a lot that goes on, supposedly in the name of "Christianity," that I do not agree with. The Jesus Seminar and its ideas of the resurrection as metaphor, would be one of them. The idea that the gospel preached by Jesus was very different from the one we have in our Bible, and that Paul "hijacked" the gospel message, would be another.

By your logic, then, if we are "honest" about it, this should make us sick, and we should walk away from Christianity because of it?

I doubt you'd agree. But you need to recognize that just as these things are not representative of mainstream Christianity--not even close, the things being presented about Masonry's fancied origins in the mysteries, are also not even close to being representative of mainstream Masonry. In fact, as just shown in regard to what Mike posted, a lot of what gets passed off as "Masonry" is not even connected, but is derived from pseudo-Masonic groups. Yet the principle as it applies to Christianity, gets applied with a totally different outcome in regard to Masonry--the old double standard rearing its head once again.

wayseer · Apr 2, 2010

brightmorningstar said:
To wayseer,
Not so fast, it isnt a concern which god to FM, whether it is actually the true God or not, but you wrote 'God' with a capital implying other gods are God, which is the deception I am pointing out to you.

What you have raise is a matter of personal theology - not something which concerns FM.

Which means FM doesnt care whether someones beliefs are in the true God or another god.

FM does not concern itself with your own personal theology, or mine for that matter.

That means FM is syncretistic and not a Christian based organisation requiring a belief in a god but not bothered whether it really is God or some other god.

Wrong again. FM is not concerned with mixing and matching belief systems. As I keep saying - FM is not a religion. And, repeating yet again what I have said earlier - FM are not allowed to talk about religion, or God, in lodge.

As I said, you have constructed your own image of FM and trying to pretend that your construction somehow resembles reality. Such is not the case.

FM is a club, like most other clubs, but a club that has a history that arose out of working masons who were responsible for constructing castles and cathedrals during that great building period across Europe.

O.F.F. · Apr 3, 2010

Wayne said:
What you just posted does not answer my challenge at all, for two quite simple and undeniable reasons:

(1) What you quoted is not ritual.
(2) It does not qualify as "the same or comparable materials."

Produce something from Masonic ritual such as was posted from Ahiman Rezon, such as opening or closing prayers, material from one of the special ceremonies, content from the Blue Degree work, etc., and get back with me, and of course we can then consider it.

But as it stands, this was a poor effort on your part to produce a response to my post as it was presented.

You know perfectly well that until someone obtains a copy of a Masonic ritual from a lodge in India there is no way we can do a word-for-word, side-by-side comparison. But for argument sake, let's 'assume' for the moment that most of the verbiage is identical. After all, it was YOU who inserted the biblical references into the excerpts you posted from your own ritual. So readers take note, those references are not in the ritual itself; not in South Carolina or any other Masonic ritual. Furthermore, I want to make it perfectly clear to all interested readers, that there is no Masonic lecture contained in any Grand Lodge monitor that would explain, or describe, the content of Masonic ritual using these references that Wayne has inserted; based upon his own "Christian" interpretation.

Having said that, let's take a look at several of his excerpts WITHOUT the biblical references HE inserted:

1. WISDOM
2. STRENGTH
3. BEAUTY
4. Blessing of Heaven
5. Hope in immortality
6. Charity to all mankind
7. May brotherly love prevail
8. Comfort
9. Love one another
10. Almighty and Eternal God

Readers can plainly see that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to discern that these very same words and concepts, can easily be found, viewed and interpreted in the language of other religions from the Volume of Law they deem as "sacred."

Not having a Masonic ritual from an Arab country, or one from India is beside the point. Masons from around the world are going to interpret Masonic ritual from the paradigm of their own religion. Also, time will not permit going through the Muslim Koran, the Buddhist Dhammapada, or the Hindu Vedas or Bhagavad-gita, or any others to demonstrate this point. However, the example I used to prove it, was not from a Masonic ritual from India, but from a distinguished Hindu Mason as he interprets it.

An important document has been written, The Volume of the Sacred Law in Multi-Faith Freemasonry which is the work of Chhotalal Pattni, whom I first met at a lodge meeting where I was privileged to hear that talk for the first time. . .

Were there many parallels between Bhagavad-gita and Masonic philosophy?

The general principle is that the Bhagavad-gita will tell you, using the reincarnation philosophy, that every man is rewarded according to his merit and ability. The principle behind the Great Architect rewarding or punishing as we have obeyed or disregarded His divine commands is the principle of karma preached by Krishna. To do action is your duty, but the fruits of it are in the hands of someone else, namely of the Great Architect, or the Lord, but the day that you do an action with the view of gaining the fruits of that action, it is not valid. It has to be a disinterested action. In chapter twelve of Bhagavad-gita we read “Try to act giving up all results of your work and try to be self-situated”, a clear reference to the Centre. The Koran is very similar – you must do the action without any desire or hope of reward.’

In fact the Bhagavad-gita is replete with principles corresponding to Masonic practice. Chapter five has clear resonances with the first degree.

'A liberated person is not attracted to material sense-pleasure. The selfrealised person enjoys unlimited happiness, for he concentrates on the Supreme.’ The prayer in the first degree takes on added significance when we read chapter sixteen: ‘These transcendental qualities belong to godly men endowed with divine nature.'

But the most striking references in Bhagavad-gita are those which resonate with the third degree. ‘Those with the vision of eternity can see that the imperishable soul is transcendental, eternal, and beyond the modes of nature.' (emphasis added)

Freemasonry and Hinduism: Chhotalal Pattni Talks to Julian Rees about Links, Freemasonry Today - Spring 2007 - Issue 40

So readers, the bottom line is this, assuming that Masonic rituals are pretty much the same; given the list from the excerpts above, if Wayne (a Mason from the U.S.) can declare that, "the Bible content and basis is unmistakable and undeniable" based on his interpretation of Masonic ritual; and, if Chhotalal Pattni (a Mason from India) can declare that, "the Bhagavad-gita is replete with principles corresponding to Masonic practice" based on his interpretation of Masonic ritual; who's to say which Mason is right, or which one is wrong?

My point is this and Wayne knows it, no ONE, single interpretation (Christian, Hindu, Muslim, or otherwise) of Masonic ritual — or of its origins for that matter — is "binding" upon any Mason. Masons are taught that, each Mason must think for himself, and each is entitled to his own opinion about Freemasonry.

Masonry claims it has no dogma. If this is true than any "official" position, on the interpretation of Masonic ritual, or its origins, would deny a man his right to think for himself; and it would violate his right to follow the dictates of his own faith. In other words, each Mason has a right to seek Masonry for what he wants to find in it. As a result, Wayne finds "Christianity," Chhotalal Pattni finds Hinduism; former Masons (Ex-Masons for Jesus) find it an abomination to biblical Christianity and the One True Living God of the Bible. Freemasonry declares that it is every mans right to believe as he wishes regarding what he feels Masonry is, or isn't; BUT it is not his right to force that belief on others.

It is not my intention, nor the intention of the members of O.F.F. to impose our conclusions about Freemasonry upon anyone; and I trust it is not Wayne's intention to impose his beliefs either. My prayer however, is that discerning devoted Christians will examine the evidence of the multitude of possible interpretations that have, and will be, presented here and decide themselves not to join a Masonic lodge; and resign and renounce Freemasonry if they already have joined one.

O.F.F. · Apr 3, 2010

In my previous post, I indicated that there are multitudes of ways in which Freemasonry can be interpreted. There you saw Masonry from a Hindu perspective. This post is designed to provide a glimpse of Masonry from a Islamic paradigm.

The following was presented in St. Michael Lodge No. 2933 in Singapore on 29th July, 2006 by a distinguished Muslim Mason by the name of Shaikh Hatim Fidahussein Nakhoda, a Past Master of District Grand Lodge of the Eastern Archipelego, UGLE.

. . .I have been diligent in attending to my duties as both, a Mason and a Muslim and have come to realise that Islam and Masonry are indeed compatible. Freemasonry may even be considered complementary to Islam as its principles only go to reinforce a Muslim brother’s own faith. . .

King Solomon is considered to have been a follower of Islam! More of this later … Anyway, masons are obligated to submit to the laws of the VSL, which, in the case of the Muslim brethren in the Craft, is the Holy Quran, if they so desire.

. . .An essential need of a mason is his inalienable belief in the Supreme Being, God, Lord, Allah or Almighty. The term Islam, on the other hand, means submission to the Divine Will and Guidance of Allah and to follow the Divine Laws. The one who follows the divine Laws is called a Muslim. It therefore must follow that both Islam and Masonry have existed from time immemorial and risen from the same roots. For this reason, King or Nabi (meaning prophet) Solomon is believed to have been a Muslim. I will shortly review Surah No. 27, Al Naml, of the Holy Quran, to explain this point of view.

In this context, however, we should also reflect on the Charge delivered to the initiate of masonry, which at one point states: “As a Freemason, let me recommend to your most serious contemplation the VSL, charging you to consider it as the unerring standard of truth and justice and to regulate your actions by the divine precepts it contains. Therein you will be taught the important duties you owe to God, to your neighbour and yourself. To God, by never mentioning His name but with that awe and reverence which are due from the creature to his Creator, by imploring His aid in all your lawful undertakings, and by looking up to Him in every emergency for comfort and support. To your neighbour, by rendering him every kind office which justice or mercy may require, by relieving his necessities and soothing his afflictions, and by doing to him as in similar cases you would wish he would do to you.” Evidently, Masonry seeks only to reaffirm whatever faith a Brother holds, be it Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism etc. except, if he should be an atheist, and in which case he cannot be accepted as a Mason.

. . .For the Muslim Masons, the Holy Quran is one of the three Emblematical (Great) Lights in Masonry. It is referred to as the VSL.

. . .Again, just as the Masons are encouraged to memorise the rituals for the better understanding of the messages enshrined in them, the Muslims consider it their duty to memorise parts of the Quran that are extensively used in the rituals of prayers, which for most, like the old English in the Masonic rituals, is in an unfamiliar language. A person who memorizes the entire Quran is highly respected and is called a Hafiz. Not unlike our Masonic ritualists, who are held in high regard in the fraternity..

Prophet Abraham, or Ibrahim, was the Patriarch and he was the first to build the Kaba in Mecca. As I had said earlier, Prophet Abraham (Ibrahim), Prophet Moses (Musa) and Prophet Jesus (Esa) had performed miracles. Nabi Esa, or Prophet Jesus, had performed the most number of miracles. Nabi Esa’s first miracle, as mentioned in the Holy Quran, was when Miriam (Mary) entered the chamber with her child in her arms. The Elders chided her, saying: “Hey Miriam, what have you brought?” In response, Mariam pointed at the Baby – indicating that the question be put to the Baby instead – when He (Esa) answered: “Do not scold my Mother, she has done no wrong. I am the Nabi Esa."

I have endeavoured so far to explain that both Islam and Masonry have the same root, neither contradicting the other nor can either be identified reasonably as Zionists. Let me now give you a little insight into Islam, and more particularly its sectarian developments, along with some information on my own sect. The latter, because it appears to be historically connected to the scriptures adopted by Masonry.

As I have already stated, Prophet Mohammed’s (pbuh) most important miracle was the Holy Quran. Every word in the Quran is the word of Allah (swt). The Quran is divided into 114 Chapters called Surah. Each Surah, except for one, begins with “Bismillah Hir Rah Ma Nir Rahim” (BHRMNR) in praise of Allah, meaning: “In The Name of Allah The Most Gracious The Most Merciful.” But the Surah No.9, Al Tawbah or Repentance, does not begin with BHRMNR. It has been speculated to be the continuation of Surah No 8. These words appear twice, however, in Chapter No.27 to make up the BHRMNR appearing 114 times in the Holy Quran, once in the usual manner at the beginning of the Surah and again in the letter within, in which Nabi Suleiman (King Solomon) wrote to Queen Bilqis, the queen of Sheba, inviting her to accept Islam, that is to follow Divine Laws. He had started his letter with the words BHRMNR, as it has always been so done by a Muslim. It lends weight to the belief that the Grand Master of Masons was also an ancient Muslim! This Surah No.27 is called, Al Naml, or “The Ant”. Queen Bilqis reigned over a powerful empire in Yemen and her headquarters were in Hadhramaut, 20 miles North of Sana (Capital of Yemen).

The first Chapter in the Holy Quran is called Surah Fatihah, also known as Hamd, meaning praise of Allah. Like every book, this first Surah acts as an introduction to the Quran. This Chapter has seven verses and is used extensively at every Majlis or Meeting or in functions like: Wedding, Divorce, Death Anniversary and Burial Ceremony. It is recited in the “Five Times Prayers” and “Supplications” as well. This Surah is:

1. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
2. Praise be to Allah The Cherisher and Sustainer of the Worlds;
3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
4. Master of the Day of Judgement.
5. Thee do we worship, And Thine aid we seek.
6. Show us the straight way,
7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, Those whose (portion) Is not wrath, And who go not astray.

The practice merits comparison with the Masonic rituals of saying a prayer or grace to TMH before and after every significant Masonic event.

Though all the Muslims believe in the One and Only Allah and the same Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) and the one unabridged Holy Quran, they are divided into several sects. The two main sects are the Sunni and the Shi’a. But, there are many other sub sects or groups. Again, not unlike the many Grand Lodges and rituals in Masonry.

. . .Here, let me digress to refer to: “seven or more to make a perfect Lodge” 13 . The Emulation rituals suggest that the number alludes “to seven liberal Arts and Sciences” that a mason is required to research to progress in life, namely: “Grammar, Rhetoric, Logic, Arithmetic, Geometry, Music and Astronomy”. Esoterically, the numbers, 3, 5 and 7 may be said to allude to the harmony of body, soul and spirit of a Lodge represented by the JW, SW and the Master respectively; the five representing the five senses namely, sight, hearing, smell, feel and taste, which together with instinct and faith of man in the Supreme Being make seven. The Masonic “five points of fellowship” is another example of the five duties pledged to assist a brother. These are not similar but certainly complementary. In Islam too, the embracing of a Muslim brother, breast to breast, has a similar meaning, both in happiness & in sorrow.

Prayers in Islam have two parts. The first part is always the same, with a ritual to stand, kneel, prostrate and sit. This ritual is called Selaat, and must be said in Arabic and must be from memory, as in the Craft, and facing the Kaba; the East in the Craft.

. . .Brethren, I have tried to bring to your attention an issue that is close to my heart. In my pursuit to strictly conform to the Islamic principles and practices, I have never found my Masonic duties to be in conflict or a hindrance. On the contrary, I have found my Masonic duties to be complementary and in harmony with those of Islam. (emphasis added)

If Freemasonry is so undeniably "Christian" that "all other religions should have a problem with it," as Wayne purports, there is no way this Muslim Mason could make this claim, anymore than the Hindu Mason in my previous post could make his claim that it is thoroughly compatible with Hinduism.

To read this presentation in its entirety, just click on the following link: ISLAM AND FREEMASONRY

O.F.F. · Apr 3, 2010

In an earlier post, I reiterated the Masonic edict that no ONE, single interpretation (Christian, Hindu, Muslim, or otherwise) of Masonic ritual — or of its origins for that matter — is "binding" upon any Mason. Masons are taught that, each Mason must think for himself, and each is entitled to his own opinion about Freemasonry.

This is why modern Masonry is referred to as "Speculative;" meaning any Mason is free to 'speculate' as to what Freemasonry is or isn't, was or will become, or that it originates from the Bible, the Ancient Mysteries, or from the pit of Hell.

One such speculation comes from Masonic author Meredith Sanderson, M.R.C.S., F.R.G.S., F.R.A.I., P.M., P.Z., P.M.M. Member of the Council of the Masonic Study Society; whose work "An Examination Of The Masonic Ritual" (1923) is also featured in the libraries of many Grand Lodges throughout the Masonic world. The purpose of this post is to begin a series of posts exploring the findings of his Masonic reseach from this book. The goal of course, is to reveal that, while Masons may argue this work is ultimately his own opinion, this is more reason why no Christian should ever have anything to do with Freemasonry. With that said, I will start with an excerpt from his own post-forward, where he makes the following point:

The classical definition of Freemasonry is that it is "a system of morality, veiled in allegory, and illustrated by symbols." Let us first consider this. We have here three propositions, of which the first and last are not difficult, . . .

The point to which I want to call particular attention is the phrase "veiled in allegory." The dictionary defines allegory as "a figurative representation, in which something else is intended to what is actually exhibited." This is, as a definition, literally and absolutely true of our Masonic ceremonies; they have two distinct meanings, an exoteric or obvious one, which is often symbolical, and an esoteric or mystical meaning. When you ask a riddle do you give the answer at the same time? Neither is the key to the Masonic allegory, i.e., its esoteric meaning, given to all and sundry. The point which must be appreciated is that there is more, much more, in the Masonic ritual than appears on the surface...

Before proceeding, I think it is important to note the 'introduction' to this work by yet another eminent Masonic author whose work is also featured in most Grand Lodge libraries throughout the Masonic world.

INTRODUCTION.

By WOR. BRO. J.S.M. WARD, M.A., F.S.S. (Author of Freemasonry and the Ancient Gods.)

IT is with great pleasure that I have accepted Major Sanderson's invitation to write an Introduction to his book, for I consider it one of the most valuable contributions of recent times from the standpoint of the Anthropological School of Masonic Research.

Major Sanderson has for many years been a careful student of the customs and initiatory rites of the Natives of Africa, among whom he has lived, and his official duties as Chief Sanitation Officer in Nyasaland has placed him in a privileged position and enabled him to obtain the confidence of the Native Races in a way which is almost impossible for any casual traveller, or even for an ordinary white civilian.

How completely he has gained the confidence of the Native Races is shown by the fact that he has been made Master of Ceremonies in their Rites, a unique privilege never before bestowed on any white man.

Major Sanderson likewise holds most of the important degrees in Freemasonry, and thus it is that he was well qualified to undertake a careful study of our rituals from the standpoint of Anthropology. The work which follows aims at showing whence many important parts of the ritual have developed, and undoubtedly Major Sanderson has produced evidence which should satisfy the most careful student as to the source and origin of certain important incidents in the ceremonies.

Major Sanderson would be the last to claim that he had been successful in discovering the origin of every point, but he has, on the other hand, clearly indicated the line of research which should be followed. He has helped to set up definite canons of evidence which, unlike those of the authentic school, remain valid even when we have got beyond written evidence (emphasis added).

Until recently the average Masonic student has concentrated his attention on 18th Century Masonic history, because he knew of no other evidence, for the antiquity of our Order, than Historical documents. As, however, written documents are a clear breach of the original 'Obligation' of the members of the Order, it is not surprising to find that hardly any exist previous to 1717. In fact, during the very years when Masonry must have been of the greatest practical importance there are but few historical documents. Furthermore, the 18th Century is a far from inspiring period in English history, and it is natural that such material as we have is for the most part dull and uninteresting. But modern historical students have realized that the written history of man represents but a tiny fraction of his real history, and that the key to recent historical events can often only be found in a period of time anterior to written documents. The methods of the Anthropologist, the Student of Folk-lore and of Comparative religions, enable us to re-discover the life and history of our pre-historic ancestors, and the same methods are yielding equally valuable results in Masonic research.

I therefore recommend to every reading Mason this little volume, and more especially to the young Mason, who will find therein the explanation of just those points on which he often seeks help and enlightenment in vain.

J. S. M. WARD

Recently, Wayne and I have been trying to engage in a discussion about the Masonic authors' theory of the link between Freemasonry and the Ancient Mysteries. And, while I have shown that there is sufficient evidence that this theory is currently being supported and perpetuated by Grand Lodges and other Masonic authorities, for the purpose of this series, I would like to merely agree with Major Sanderson that, "if we find points of similarity between Freemasonry and other systems, even though we find identical ceremonies occurring in each, it does not necessarily follow that the one is "descended" from the other: such resemblances or identity are more often due to a common origin." However, let me allow Major Sanderson to share his own disclaimer, where I will merely place 'bold' emphasis on points he makes in it that I believe are significant.

A NOTE ON MASONIC ORIGINS.

It is now generally accepted that the essentials of Freemasonry have been handed down from time immemorial, and it is therefore obvious that we should look round to see if anything similar to it exists in other parts of the world; we can then compare one with the other and learn much as to the meaning of each. When we come to consider the third degree we shall be better able to discuss this subject, and for the present the reader should preserve an open mind.

He must, however, appreciate that if we find points of similarity between Freemasonry and other systems, even though we find identical ceremonies occurring in each, it does not necessarily follow that the one is "descended" from the other: such resemblances or identity are more often due to a common origin. If, for instance, we find points of resemblance between the Brahman ritual and Freemasonry it does not imply that the Craft came to us from India, but it is certainly suggestive that both were derived from some ancient rite, possibly in Egypt, possibly in Asia. Similarly when we find some of our signs or even parts of our rites in the initiation ceremonies of primitive peoples - and I have found such myself in the heart of Africa - it is at least suggestive that Freemasonry had its origin in similar primitive rites ages ago.

That this was actually the case is my belief, but I would warn the reader that it is not held by all Masons. He should not, therefore, blindly accept my conclusions as orthodox, but rather regard them as speculations made with the specific purpose of stimulating enquiry. Let me assure him of one thing, however, - he can trust the facts from which my speculations have been made; every one has been carefully verified and he will find no difficulty in distinguishing between fact and theory. Given the facts everybody can make his own deductions. As the result of several years' research I can supply parallels to most of our customs from other parts of the world, some of them culled from the work of other Masonic students but more from that of ethnologists and from my own experiences - but I do not make any dogmatic statements as to the meaning of such parallels.

Armed with this backdrop, let's begin to explore excerpts from the analysis of the First Degree of Freemasonry as outlined by Sanderson.

PREPARATION

The (Masonic) reader will remember that before he was admitted to the Lodge he had to be prepared in a certain way: i.e., he was divested of all (metallic substances, neither naked nor clothed, barefoot nor shod, left
knee and breast bare, hood-winked, and with a cable-tow about his neck).

Let us take each of these points seriatim:-

(a) Divested of all (metallic substances)

The reason given for this in the Lecture is threefold, - that no weapons should be brought into the Lodge, that it should remind the initiate of the virtue of charity, and lastly that no (metallic substances) were used in building K.S.T.. We find on further enquiry, however, that all over the world and in all ages there has been a feeling that (metal) was impure and savoured of the black art, and it probably dates from the close of the stone age. It is one of those superstitions which have persisted in so remarkable a manner (like, for instance, that of "touching wood"), and it is invariably specified in old wives' spells whether (metal) must be used or not used; it is probably connected with the injunction to be sure and touch (metal) when the new moon is first seen. In a tribe in Central Africa among whom I have lived (the Wa Yao) no (metal) must be worn during the ceremony of purification, nor on many other similar occasions both in this tribe and others. The ban said to have been put on (metallic substances) during the (building) of K.S.T. is, of course, the same superstition, but it is doubtful if it is the source of the Masonic custom: as we shall see, many of our customs can be traced to Magic. . .

(b) Hood-winked

The candidate is described as "a poor blind candidate in a state of darkness," which is figurative of being in a state of darkest ignorance, in preparation for receiving the light...in Masonry. This symbolism is common to all the ancient mysteries, and to many primitive ceremonies of initiation the world over. (emphasis added)

Stay tuned, as there will be more to come later!

Rev Wayne · Apr 3, 2010

O.F.F. said:
Recently, Wayne and I have been trying to engage in a discussion about the Masonic authors' theory of the link between Freemasonry and the Ancient Mysteries. And, while I have shown that there is sufficient evidence that this theory is currently being supported and perpetuated by Grand Lodges and other Masonic authorities, for the purpose of this series, I would like to merely agree with Major Sanderson that, "if we find points of similarity between Freemasonry and other systems, even though we find identical ceremonies occurring in each, it does not necessarily follow that the one is "descended" from the other: such resemblances or identity are more often due to a common origin."

Well, gee, that would be absolutely great, and a very powerful and convincing argument, if you were to SHOW Sanderson's statement to be true rather than merely stating that you AGREE with him, which "proves" nothing at all. You have not cited even ONE instance from Sanderson and laid it out side-by-side with Masonic ritual, to convince anyone here that there are "IDENTICAL CEREMONIES OCCURRING IN EACH." In fact, NO ONE, to my knowledge, has ever done so. It's always the smoke and mirrors of "similarities." Well, guess what? I wrote a paper quite some time ago (over 20 years, actually)--not a "Masonic" paper, mind you, but one in conjunction with a group study of Africa--in which I examined the tribal religions of Africa to what similarities existed among them. To my surprise, in the Creation accounts, I found a lot of similarities, not just among those religions, but to the biblical accounts as well. They were most easily seen in the idea of the break that came between God and man's Edenic fellowship (which of course is not the way they stated it). In one tribe, there was an account of a rope that extended from earth to heaven. People would climb up the rope and enjoy fellowship with God, and then return later. But something happened which marred the fellowship, and when it did, God cut the rope. Now anybody can see the comparison between that and the biblical account of original sin, with the banishment from Eden and the sword guarding the entrance. But to take those comparisons, and say either one of them derived from the other in some direct fashion? It could never be sustained. But such is the general nature of the claims I have encountered, of any "other religions" having any direct input into Masonry.

However, let me allow Major Sanderson to share his own disclaimer, where I will merely place 'bold' emphasis on points he makes in it that I believe are significant.

Yeah, that "YOU believe are significant," there's the whole problem. You always manage, somehow, to leave the PRIMARY points out--like THIS one:

But modern historical students have realized that the written history of man represents but a tiny fraction of his real history, and that the key to recent historical events can often only be found in a period of time anterior to written documents.

Say what???? He's trying to apply this to MASONRY?? And he's going to try to do that just HOW, exactly?? Seems to me he's trying to build a case which is totally INDEPENDENT of anything written!

The problem that presents for YOU in this discussion is simple: Since the challenge that was put forth, was. . .

The rituals are saturated with Bible content. Any Mason familiar with the Bible can’t miss it:. . .

. . .The Bible content and basis is unmistakable and undeniable. When I have presented this in the past and have invited anyone to cite from the same or comparable materals, anywhere that would confirm what they claim as "paganism," it has met with a decidedly stony silence.

. . .exactly how do you propose to show that the WRITTEN rituals of Masonry, contain any DIRECTLY DISCERNIBLE traces of having been derived from such sources, without consulting anything WRITTEN?

You know perfectly well that until someone obtains a copy of a Masonic ritual from a lodge in India there is no way we can do a word-for-word, side-by-side comparison. But for argument sake, let's 'assume' for the moment that most of the verbiage is identical. After all, it was YOU who inserted the biblical references into the excerpts you posted from your own ritual. So readers take note, those references are not in the ritual itself; not in South Carolina or any other Masonic ritual.

READERS TAKE NOTE: Some of them are, some of them are not. But what I clearly stated in introducing the material, was, "The rituals are saturated with Bible content. Any Mason familiar with the Bible can’t miss it."

Now, let me say, I realize I did not include EX-Masons in that comment, but it certainly was implied. But since we apparently have an ex-Mason here who is NOT familiarl with the Bible, and thus can't recognize them even when he ought to remember it from going through the degrees and hearing it, I'll be happy to identify them for you:

First degree--Here is what our manual contains, EXACTLY as it appears there:

The following passage of Scripture is used during the ceremony:

Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;
As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.--Psalm CXXXIII

Second degree--Here is what our manual contains, EXACTLY as it appears there:

The following passage of Scripture is introduced during the ceremony:

Thus he shewed me: and, behold, the LORD stood upon a wall made by a plumb-line, with a plumb-line in his hand.
And the LORD said unto me, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A plumb-line. Then said the LORD, Behold, I will set a plumb-line in the midst of my people Israel: I will not again pass by them any more.--Amos VII, 7,8.

Third degree--Here is what our manual contains, EXACTLY as it appears there:

The following passage of Scripture is introduced during the ceremonies:

Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;
While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain:
In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened,
And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low;
Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.--Ecclesiastes XII, 1-7.

As for the rest of them, I provided the references mainly to show the source. Just because it has no reference, makes it no less biblical in origin. There are actually very few of them which do not have all or part of some biblical verse contained in them, by which the source may be quickly identified as the Bible. And anyway, most of them are prayers. I hear scriptural prayers in much the same fashion in church, quite often, depending on who is doing the praying. I thought it was pretty common among our African-American friends, or at least I have observed it to be so during the times I have been present with them. So I'm a little surprised that you would even THINK that a prayer ought to have scriptural references included. Don't you think that would be just a tad bit awkward?

But you needn't think either, that the places listing biblical references are limited exclusively to the ones just noted. There are many more, most of which are fairly extensive and therefore did not get included in my list, primarily for the sake of brevity. I simply would not be able to list them all in full without having to resort to two or more posts.

By way of comparison, I notice you STILL have not come up with ONE citation from some other book, even from the foreign lodges that have ENGLISH websites, such as the Grand Lodge of India, of Belgium, of Japan, of Lebanon, etc. etc., that show any statement in them which can be shown to derive directly from any other religion or its "sacred book." Why is it you seem to think it has to be in their native language for us to see it (or not see it)?

But more on that shortly, I have somewhat to reply to your claims on that point.

Rev Wayne · Apr 3, 2010

O.F.F. said:
Readers can plainly see that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to discern that these very same words and concepts, can easily be found, viewed and interpreted in the language of other religions from the Volume of Law they deem as "sacred."

"Readers can plainly see" quite a few things. For one thing, that your current response was NOT what was intended by the challenge put forth. I find DIRECT citations from the Bible and challenge you to do likewise with the book of any other religion, and the best you can come up with is, something "viewed and interpreted in the language of other religions?" Big deal! Show that all day long, and you will still have the challenge before you.

And for another thing, you are trying to obscure the obvious: these ARE related to the Bible rather than another religion that might consider them "sacred," for one over-arching reason: that's where Masonry GOT them. All you do in "removing the biblical references" is to obliterate the identifiers that I added for easier recognition of their true source. Compare them with KJV version of the references I provided, and you can easily see it.

You know perfectly well that until someone obtains a copy of a Masonic ritual from a lodge in India there is no way we can do a word-for-word, side-by-side comparison.

Nobody asked you to do so. But if you thought the task was impossible, maybe you shouldn't have been making presumptuous claims, or didn't you think of that?

I think your complaint is based more on the fact that "YOU know good and well" they don't exist. But there are ways to find out what they use--try the Grand Lodge of India website, for example, who has an English language website, as do many foreign lodges. Even though the GLoI website is not tyled, and therefore discussion of the ritual is not direct, there are still ways to find information. From Jan.-March 2008 issue of Square & Compasses, their official magazine:

We need to help our new members to understand what the present ritual is trying to tell them in the language of the past. While I would not suggest that we replace the ritual we use in the ceremonies, I would like to see made available to candidates, immediately after they become master masons, a written interpretation of the ritual in modern English. This would help them to understand what we are trying to communicate to them in our ritual. After all, this approach has already been adopted with the Bible. When I was young, the King James version of the Bible was the only one readily available. Now we have a number of versions in modern English, which serve to clarify the more obscured passages.

Now why would this even be mentioned in a discussion of ritual, if there was not some connection? Apparently their lodges use rituals the same as ours, with KJV (albeit translated into their language) being the language being read during the readings of the degrees. But I'm not so sure they don't do them in English. That would not be surprising, since historically they were founded by the Grand Lodges of England, Ireland, and Scotland. They did not officially become the Grand Lodge of India until 1961.

But every indication I get in reading through their official lodge magazine, indicates that their rituals use the traditional rituals:

It is interesting to note that in every Degree of Freemasonry the words and incidents associated with them are found in the bible which is considered to be the Volume of the Sacred Law by Freemasons, though when any person who does not have faith in the Bible takes his Oath of Secrecy on the Volume considered by him to be sacred, and an oath taken on it makes it binding upon him.

The Building of the Holy Temple is recorded in great detail in the Volume of the Sacred Law, i.e. in the Old Testament of the Bible. As I have said above every Degree in Freemasonry is derived from some part of the Bible. It includes the New Testament also. ("Some Thoughts on Freemasonry," By W. Bro. Rev. P. A. KRISHNASWAMI, M.A. P.A.G. Chap., District Grand Secretary, District Grand Lodge of Bengal)

In the Holy Bible it is mentioned that the inner chamber of King Solomon's Temple was separated from the "Holy Place" by a partition wall of stone of a cubit's thickness. In it was set a door of olive wood of Pentagonal shape i.e. its top lintel was not a regular straight cross beam but consisted of two beams meeting at an angle. One can, therefore, assume that the "Sacred Arch of King Solomon's Temple" was a similar one and the keystone referred to in our ritual was one which was placed over the highest corner thus formed by two beams of the pentagon. (From an Oration Delivered by V.W.Bro. K.K. Gautam, Grand Chaplain, at the Consecration of Kashi Vishwanath Mark Master Masons Lodge No. 117, Varanasi on October 23, 2006)

Sounds like the ritual is no different than our own, this is very familiar to me. And the speaker apparently presumed all of this was familiar to his hearers, so the allusions to events in King Solomon's Temple appear to be a part of their ritual as well.

Nor do the above represent singular or isolated statements. It seems to be pretty common in the articles found on their Grand Lodge site:

The preparation is accompanied by ceremonies which, to a superficial thinker may appear trifling and undignified, although they embody a series of references to certain sublime matters, which constitute the very essence of the institution, and contribute to its stability and permanent usefulness everything to be done decently and in order. But ceremonies, considered abstractedly, are of little value, except as they contribute their aid to impress upon the mind scientific beauties and moral truths, and this is the peculiar characteristic of our Order, which although its rites and observances are studiously complicated throughout the whole routine of its consecutive degrees, does not contain a single ceremony that is barren of intellectual improvement, for they all bear a direct reference to certain ancient usages recorded in the Bible, which is always expanded on the pedestal in the East. (From "Masonic Preparations," H. Geffen, P.F.S., in Square & Compasses, May/June 2002, p. 2)

The Bible tells us that "Love keeps no record of wrongs."

An old woman in the village was said to be receiving divine apparitions. The local priest demanded proof of this. He said, "When God appears to you next time ask Him to tell you my sins which are known to him alone. That should be evidence enough." The priest returned to the woman a month later and asked if God had appeared to her again. She said, "Yes, he had." "And did you put the question to him?" "Yes, I did," said the woman. "And what did He say?" enquired the priest anxiously. The old woman replied "He said, tell your priest I have forgotten his sins." (Address of M.W. the Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Mark Master Masons of India M.W.Bro. Arun Chintopanth, at the Grand Festival held at Varanasi on November 27, 2005)

I was surprised to learn that there is no mention of the death of Hiram in the Holy Bible. Nor did he appear to have been the chief architect. He was a skilled worker in metal who cast a number of pieces, including the two great pillars, in brass. "And Hurum made the pots, and the shovels, and the basons. And Huram finished the work that he was to make for King Solomon for the house of God; To wit, the two pillars, and the pommels, and the chapiters which were on the top of the two pillars, and the two wreaths to cover the two pommels of the chapiters which were on the top of the pillars."
So why did our ritual portray a skilled metalworker as the chief architect of the temple, and finally had him murdered to boot? The reason was obvious. As Albert Pike put it, "We teach the truth of none of the legends we recite. They are to us but parables and allegories, involving and enveloping Masonic instruction; and vehicles of useful and interesting information."
My curiosity now led me to the historical side of Freemasonry. I learnt that the Third Degree and the Hiramic Legend were introduced in our ritual only at around 1725 AD; that by that time the Craft had become wholly speculative; that our present ritual itself was developed by the giant intellects of Dr. Theophilus Desaguliers and Dr. James Anderson. Dr. Desaguliers "brought his experimental philosophy to Freemasonry and gave to it a touch of Christianity, a belief in Newton's God, now and for the first time, "The Great Artificer and Creator of the Universe." The world has been openly venal and immoral. It had been attacking religion in self-defense, and all the more easily because religion seemed but an ancient dogma. But here was a new idea in religion, one appealing to the intelligence instead of offering a creed, for it based upon analysis and reality. Here, a contemplation of nature produced certain logical facts. It taught men to think" (source for this quote: W.Bro. George E. Maine - Desagulliers and The March of Militant Masonry). (From "How Freemasonry has made a Difference in my Life," an Essay by W.Bro. C.S. Madhavan, Lodge Jyothi No. 253, Salem. For this essay, he was awarded a Certificate of Merit in the Grand Master's Essay Writing Competition 2005)

The Wisdom of Masonry is exemplified in establishing her basis on the immutable foundation of Truth. Her cardinal principle is belief in the existence of God. All other truths correlative with belief in a Deity have a place in her system. The Bible, as the source and standard of Truth, is exalted on her altars as her first great light, and all her moral teachings, are but beams of its brightness. (From " Freemasonry & ITS Principles," an oration delivered by W. Bro. S.G. Lovelace at the foundation stone of the new Masonic temple at Dehradun)

When we say Brotherly Love it presumes that we believe that we are all children of one father, God. The best definition of Brotherly Love that comes to my mind is from St. John the Apostle, the beloved disciple of Jesus Christ, who said:
"He who says that he is in the light, and has hate in his heart for his brother, is still in the dark."
"He who has love for his brother is in the light, and there is no cause of error in him."
(Ist Epistle of John, Ch. 2:9 & 10)
"No man has ever seen God: if we have love for one another, God is in us and his love is made complete in us."
(Ist Epistle of John, Ch.4:12)
Having come in our thoughts when dealing with Brotherly Love, to God dealing with Brotherly Love, to God Himself, I do not think that I should say any more about it.
But what about Relief ?
Regarding this also certain verses from the Volume of the Sacred Law come to my mind: St. James writes in his Epistle, Chapter 2, Verses 15 and 16 as follows:-
"If a brother or a sister is without clothing and in need of food,
"And one of you says to there, Go in peace, be warm and full of food; but you do not give them the things of which their bodies have need, what profit is there in this ?"
Also in I John, Ch. 3:17 it is said:
"But if a man has this world's goods, and sees that his brother is in need, and keeps his heart shut against his brother, how is it possible for the love of God to be in him?"
Thus in essence Relief boils down to this, that we share what we have got with those who do not have but need them so that there is fellow-feeling and cheer and contentment all around. Happy have we met; happy have we been! ("THE GRAND PRINCIPLES OF FREEMASONRY," By W. Bro. P. A. Krishnaswami, M.A., P.A.G.D.C.)

Freemasonry does not claim to be a religion. Yet, viewed in the manner in which it is dealt with in this essay, in its very base is the grandest principle of all religions, viz., Truth. The daily advancement in Masonic knowledge which a Mason is presumed to make means that all his actions and thoughts must be so shaped and directed as to the ultimate discovery of Truth.
What is Truth ? asked Pilate of Jesus Christ; but before he could receive an answer he went out in a hurry anxious to proclaim the innocence of Jesus to the clamoring crowd outside. The spirit and the circumstances in which the question was asked was poignant indeed.
And yet the very person to whom the question was put had said:
"To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Everyone that is of the truth heareth my voice"
(St. John, Ch 18:37)
He had also said:
"I am the way, the truth, and the life."
(St. John, Ch. 14:6)
These are very weighty words and I must close this short essay with those words. (("THE GRAND PRINCIPLES OF FREEMASONRY," By W. Bro. P. A. Krishnaswami, M.A., P.A.G.D.C.)

"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."(Galatians 5:14).
That is the first of the three great tenets of Freemasonry - Brotherly Love. (W. Bro. C. S. Madhavan. "Relevance of Masonic Philosophy in Today's Context")

Freemasonry and its principles

Freemasonry is fundamentally based on Brotherly Love, Relief and Truth which are ethical principles acceptable to all good men. It supports the "Golden Rule" - To do unto others as you would wish them to do unto you. It teaches each member to act and live in such a way that he will always strive to become a better man, not better than someone else, but better tomorrow than he is today. ("Introduction to Freemasonry and a quick overview of its history," compiled by R.W.Bro Justice Devinder Gupta, Dy. G. M. Grand Lodge of India)

So I'm afraid I have to reject your little thesis concerning India lodges. Besides, you tried this once before, remember, only in that instance it was lodges in Turkey you tried it with, and with the same result?

Maybe you need to find a way to get hold of some foreign manuals and try to find an occasional loophole, much like you have tried to do with non-representative statements you rustle up out of them.

Rev Wayne · Apr 3, 2010

In this context, however, we should also reflect on the Charge delivered to the initiate of masonry, which at one point states: “As a Freemason, let me recommend to your most serious contemplation the VSL, charging you to consider it as the unerring standard of truth and justice and to regulate your actions by the divine precepts it contains. Therein you will be taught the important duties you owe to God, to your neighbour and yourself. To God, by never mentioning His name but with that awe and reverence which are due from the creature to his Creator, by imploring His aid in all your lawful undertakings, and by looking up to Him in every emergency for comfort and support. To your neighbour, by rendering him every kind office which justice or mercy may require, by relieving his necessities and soothing his afflictions, and by doing to him as in similar cases you would wish he would do to you.” Evidently, Masonry seeks only to reaffirm whatever faith a Brother holds, be it Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism etc. except, if he should be an atheist, and in which case he cannot be accepted as a Mason.

How am I to "reflect on" something which, in my jurisdiction, is not even to be FOUND there? We have no such instruction in our charge. It's similar, but it does not contain that first line cited here about the "VSL," which I couldn't help but notice you highlighted. Ours reads:

There are three great duties which, as a Mason, you are charged to inculcate--to God, to your neighbour and yourself. To God, by never mentioning His name but with that reverential awe which is due from a creature to his Creator, to implore His aid in all your laudable undertakings, and to esteem Him as the chief good. To your neighbour, in acting upon the square, and doing unto him as you wish he should do unto you. And to yourself, in avoiding all irregularity and intemperance, which may impair your faculties, or debase the dignity of your profession.

So the real question here would be, how representative of Masonry IS the version supplied by the author of that article? That I am not prepared to answer, as it would take a consideration of the charge as it appears in every Grand Lodge rendition of it everywhere in the world. I'm not sure if there is ANYBODY who would have that level of resources on hand. But I don't NEED to. All it takes is to show that the statement you supplied is not universal to Masonry. And I showed that already, with one quick look in our own manual here. And as you were informed not so long ago, our monitor is a reflection of Webb's Monitor. I happen to have a copy of Webb from 1813, and Webb is identical to what I just stated from our manual. A quick look at a Florida manual tells me theirs is word for word the same as ours. If I were to continue looking, what would I find, Michael, or have you even considered the fact that Masonic rituals, charges included, are not one-size-fits-all, but have distinct differences like this one?

I would also point out to you as I have before, that in our jurisdiction, you simply do not find "VSL," but in every reference to it, it is "Holy Bible"--in fact, given the diffference between our version and the one cited in your quote, I'd say the omission/removal of "VSL" from the charge appears to be deliberate--either that, or whatever version this Muslim cited has ADDED it to the charge.

So with all due consideration, his comments about what it says are irrelevant to me, and until and unless you can show this to have any widespread usage other than in a Muslim lodge, it's irrelevant to this discussion, because so far, you simply have not shown any general consensus of this particular part of the charge actually being given to anyone but a Muslim--and I find it particularly odd, you arguing tooth and nail with Christian Masons, and immediately accepting a Muslim Mason at his word, no questions asked.

If you wish to make whatever claim you wish to make with it, first verify it. Otherwise, it looks pretty solid when I find in our manual that the same usage that was in place in 1813, and and is still in usage here ever since (and in Florida), word for word. And if it is to be shown otherwise, well the burden of that proof does not reside with me, as I did not make any claim with it.

The Masonic “five points of fellowship” is another example of the five duties pledged to assist a brother. These are not similar but certainly complementary. In Islam too, the embracing of a Muslim brother, breast to breast, has a similar meaning, both in happiness & in sorrow.

Easy to claim, impossible to document, since Masonry's use of the five points of fellowship has a definite and TRACEABLE derivation elsewhere. Plus, too, I suppose you didn't notice it when he said these were "NOT SIMILAR but complementary?" What part of "not similar" did you not get? It really doesn't look like he was trying to make any claim about them being of Islamic ORIGIN, now does it?

Five has always been a significant number in Masonry, this is only one of many, among them the five-pointed star symbolic of the Bethlehem star, the "five points of felicity," the "five lights on the New Testament," and others.

It is little surprise, given the long history of the Masons that the number five appears frequently in these rituals. Central to the appearance of the number five is "all that Freemasonry is, all that it teaches, all that is within it which is valuable, has come through the five senses…Without the five senses man would not really be alive, even if his body possessed life. His five senses are his sole and only contacts with the world. A man with no senses could know nothing, communicate nothing."
To have a lodge, there must be five members: "the worshipful master, the two wardens, and two fellows of the working class." These five are required to hold a lodge "in allusion to the five noble orders of architecture, namely the Tuscan, Doric, Ionic, Corinthian and Composite," these are also sometimes referred to as the classical orders.

The Freemasons celebrate also the "Five Points of Felicity: and the "Five Lights on the New Testament." The five points of light on the New Testament are "The birth, life, death, resurrection, and ascension" of Christ. Also associated with these five points is the five pointed star which appeared over Bethlehem at Christ’s birth. The five points of felicity are reminders "To walk, to intercede for, to pray, to love and to assist your Brethren, so as to be united with them in heart and mind."

It comes as little surprise that one way that masons recognize each other then, is through the five points of fellowship. (Richard Carlile, Manual of Freemasonry, p. 245)

O.F.F. said:
If Freemasonry is so undeniably "Christian" that "all other religions should have a problem with it," as Wayne purports, there is no way this Muslim Mason could make this claim, anymore than the Hindu Mason in my previous post could make his claim that it is thoroughly compatible with Hinduism.

I would appreciate it if you would refrain from mis-characterizing things I say. I tire of having to repeat it to you, but either CITE MY POSTS or DON'T REPHRASE MY COMMENTS AT ALL. I say that because without fail, constantly, 100% of the time, you NEVER get it right. This time around, I refer to "undeniably Christian" which I do NOT claim about Freemasonry. Every time I speak of the part, for some weird reason you try to presume the whole. I spoke only of certain identifiable statements, or phrases, or citations, which are unmistakably Christian in origin and nature, and often directly identifiable as biblical--especially in the instances where they include the book, chapter and verse reference--which is one reason why I took exception to your earlier remark about "removing the references." Kinda hard to "remove the references" when we're speaking of Psalm 133 being read in its entirety, and by direct instruction that the Bible be opened to it during the first degree. Likewise with Amos 7:7-8 in the second degree, and Ecclesiastes 12:1-7 in the third.

What you're doing is pure sophistry, smoke and mirrors games, and STILL does not qualify as a response to what was challenged. All you have managed to cite here is, people TALKING ABOUT Masonry/the rituals, you have not shown anything from the rituals themselves, whether monitorial or otherwise.

O.F.F. · Apr 5, 2010

Wayne said:
I spoke only of certain identifiable statements, or phrases, or citations, which are unmistakably Christian in origin and nature, and often directly identifiable as biblical--especially in the instances where they include the book, chapter and verse reference

No you did NOT, you placed biblical references to such words and phrases as:

1. WISDOM
2. STRENGTH
3. BEAUTY
4. Blessing of Heaven
5. Hope in immortality
6. Charity to all mankind
7. May brotherly love prevail
8. Comfort
9. Love one another
10. Almighty and Eternal God

None of these are "unmistakably Christian in origin and nature" when you know perfectly well that other religions have similiar langauge in their "holy" books.

Wayne said:
I took exception to your earlier remark about "removing the references." Kinda hard to "remove the references" when we're speaking of Psalm 133 being read in its entirety, and by direct instruction that the Bible be opened to it during the first degree. Likewise with Amos 7:7-8 in the second degree, and Ecclesiastes 12:1-7 in the third.

The only place Masonic ritual makes these specific references, is where the Bible is opened for each degree, only in US lodges where the predominant religion of the country is Christian, and the predominant VSL is the Holy Bible. Everywhere else in US Masonic rituals where Scripture is quoted it is done so out-of-context, and there is NEVER a biblical reference made where they do it. So the removal of the references YOU INSERTED to the above list was appropriate, because those references don't exist in Masonic ritual. As for that list coming from the Bible, again that only exist in YOUR MIND, as YOU interpret it; which was my point.

O.F.F. · Apr 5, 2010

Wayne said:
The problem that presents for YOU in this discussion is simple: . . .exactly how do you propose to show that the WRITTEN rituals of Masonry, contain any DIRECTLY DISCERNIBLE traces of having been derived from such sources, without consulting anything WRITTEN?

My introduction of Sanderson's work is not intended to address your challenge. It's being presented to further show the similarities of Masonry and pagan religions, some of which are primitive and ancient -- though not necessarily linked. And to underscore the fact that many, if not most, Grand Lodges support his theory by virtue of the fact that their libraries contain his work.

Now if in your 'defense' of Freemasonry, you wish to counter this argument by suggesting, as you already have, that "Christianity" in many ways is "similar" to primitive or ancient religions -- though not necessarily linked -- then by all means, please give us the same courtesy, by demonstrating that many, if not most, Christian denominations support such a theory by virtue of the fact that their specific libraries, websites, doctrine, or statements of faith, etc. 'whatsoever' contain such a theory.

Wayne said:
By way of comparison, I notice you STILL have not come up with ONE citation from some other book, even from the foreign lodges that have ENGLISH websites, such as the Grand Lodge of India, of Belgium, of Japan, of Lebanon, etc. etc., that show any statement in them which can be shown to derive directly from any other religion or its "sacred book." Why is it you seem to think it has to be in their native language for us to see it (or not see it)?

I must assume that when you say, "I notice you STILL have not come up with ONE citation from some other book" you must mean some other ritual, and not some other "sacred" book. Unless you missed the Hindu Masonic interpretation of ritual shown earlier:

In fact the Bhagavad-gita is replete with principles corresponding to Masonic practice. Chapter five has clear resonances with the first degree.

'A liberated person is not attracted to material sense-pleasure. The selfrealised person enjoys unlimited happiness, for he concentrates on the Supreme.’ The prayer in the first degree takes on added significance when we read chapter sixteen: ‘These transcendental qualities belong to godly men endowed with divine nature.'

But the most striking references in Bhagavad-gita are those which resonate with the third degree. ‘Those with the vision of eternity can see that the imperishable soul is transcendental, eternal, and beyond the modes of nature.' (emphasis added)

Freemasonry and Hinduism: Chhotalal Pattni Talks to Julian Rees about Links, Freemasonry Today - Spring 2007 - Issue 40

Surely you can SEE in this citation statements which can be shown to derive directly from the Hindu religion and its "sacred book;" in this case, the Bhagavad-gita. Again, I don't have a Masonic ritual from India or any other foreign jurisdiction, so I will not be taking you up on your "challenge;" nor do I think it is even necessary to PROVE my 'Masonic' point.

However, you seem to be avoiding the problem that it presents for YOU in this discussion, when I posed the hypothetical assumption that the rituals are identical. However, we must add one caveat to this hypothetical; we have to assume that since the VSL in India -- and other non-Christian countries -- most likely is NOT the Holy Bible, whatever VSL used must be opened at different places in their "sacred" book during each of the 3 degrees in the Blue Lodge.

Again, assuming everything else is the same, Masons in these countries are still going to interpret Masonic ritual and its symbolism from the perspective of their own religion.

O.F.F. · Apr 5, 2010

Like I said at the end of my last post, Masons in foreign countries are always going to interpret Masonic ritual and its symbolism from the perspective of their own religion. For now, I cannot find a better example to illustrate this than the following:

MASONIC SYMBOLISM AND VEDANTA
by W.Bro.Chakravarthy Sampath Madhavan
Lodge Jyothi # 253, Salem
Grand Lodge of India.

This essay was awarded the second prize in the annual essay competition conducted by the Grand Lodge of India.(2004)

The symbolism of Masonry is the soul of Masonry. Every symbol of a Lodge is a religious teacher, the mute teacher also of morals and philosophy. It is in the ancient symbols and in the knowledge of their true meaning that the pre-eminence of Freemasonry over all others consists.

Albert Pike

PREFACE

It is possible to give a Christian interpretation to the whole of Craft Masonry, including all its symbols, and no one can deny the correctness of that interpretation. But before Christianity existed systems similar to our own were known and venerated, and some of their symbolism and teaching has undoubtedly linked up with Freemasonry. It is therefore natural that a non-Christian interpretation should also exist, and be just as correct.

Colin Dyer: Symbolism in Craft Freemasonry.

All great religions of the world preach morals, compassion and charity and have subsisted through millennia. On the other hand, many institutions, which have preached and practised these admirable virtues in abundant measure, have become defunct after sometime. Proof enough that there is more to Religion than mere sermonising on morality and virtue. It fulfils a need, innate in every man, to realise the Eternal Truth - Satyam.

Freemasonry, like all great religions, is but Mans quest for Truth. Truth indeed, is the most important of the three Grand Principles on which the order is founded - Brotherly Love and Relief being only precursory or preparatory to it. Its symbols, allegories and ceremonials, in all their richness and variety are meant to awaken in every Mason a desire to know the Truth, and guide him in his search for it.

Scriptures of all religions employ parables and allegories to propound their philosophies. This essay atempts to project the symbolism of Freemasonry through the vivid imagery of the Upanishads, with excerpts from the Bible as counterpoint, and interpret it in the context of their teachings, to point out Masonry Universal.

WHAT IS TRUTH?

And the light shineth in darkness; and darkness comprehended it not.

1 John 1:5

It is pure; It is the Light of lights; It is That which they know who know the Self.

Mundaka Upanishad 2-2-9

The Truth that Freemasonry teaches is that most interesting of human studies - the knowledge of oneself. There is an inner light, a divinity, in each of us, which is the genuine secret of a Master Mason and which, in our present state of darkness or ignorance, is lost to us. Freemasonry teaches us that the sole purpose of our existence is to seek for that which was lost. That we must persevere in our search for this light and labour incessantly to make ourselves perfect till time or circumstances restore it., even though that goal may remain incomplete, as was the temple in our legend. Our rituals and ceremonies are specifically designed to guide us in this spiritual journey- to dispel ignorance, to know God, and finally to experience God.

ILLUSTRATED BY SYMBOLS

The way of Masonry is largely inculcated by symbols. It has been found in all ages that emblems and symbols expressing great truths by a few simple strokes appeal to the mind more strongly and are better remembered than words. To make the most of them it is necessary to grasp the meaning underlying them, and to carry the mind along with them.

F.V.Mataralay: The Masonic Way

The principles of Freemasonry are taught at two levels, exoteric and esoteric. Its moral and ethical teachings expound the duties that a Mason owes to God, his neighbour and himself, and are demonstrated by simple ceremonials and explicitly explained by using stonemasons tools as symbols. The working tools most familiar to a Freemason are the 24-inch gauge, common gavel, chisel, plumb, level, square, and compasses. We are taught that the 24-inch gauge relates to the 24 hours of the day: to be spent in prayer, labour and refreshment, and in serving the needy. That the gavel, as the force of conscience knocks off all undesirable propensities, and the chisel representing education smoothens the rough ashlar into a perfect one. The level teaches equality and universal brotherhood, which is the fundamental creed of our fraternity. The plumb stands for uprightness and rectitude; the square, used for truing stones, is an emblem of morality and virtue; the compasses symbolise restraint and self-control - to circumscribe our passions within due bounds, and limit our desires.

These symbols impress their moral teachings forcibly on our minds, and act as constant reminders to practise them in thought and deed. However, all symbols are capable of more than one interpretation. As speculative Masons we are enjoined to contemplate these symbols and discover deeper, hidden meanings, as we make further progress in the science.

VEILED IN ALLEGORY

Our teaching is purposely veiled in allegory and symbol and its deeper import does not appear on the surface of the ritual itself. This is partly in correspondence with human life itself and the world we live in, which are themselves but allegories and symbols of another life and the veils of another world; and partly also, so that only those who have reverent and understanding minds may penetrate into the more hidden meaning of the doctrine of the Craft. The deeper secrets in Masonry, like the deeper secrets of life, are heavily veiled; are closely hidden.

W.L.Wilmhurst: The Meaning of Masonry

Therefore I speak to them in parables; because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. Matthew: 13:13

O Sun! The face of truth is hidden by a golden disc. Unveil it that I who am in search of truth may behold it.

Isa Upanishad: 15

Esoteric Freemasonry is taught through veiled allegory. Masonic symbolism comprises essentially of two separate but interwoven allegories - the quest for Light, and the building of King Solomons Temple. To the Mason, the building of the Temple itself is a symbol of human life. He carefully builds his character, speculatively using the working tools of the stonemason, and progresses slowly towards the East in search of light. The culmination of his journey is the tragedy of Hiram Abiff, in which he portrays the Master.

Other symbols like the mosaic pavement, rough and perfect ashlars, the two pillars and the winding staircase, are embroidered into the fabric of these allegories to inculcate moral values that will enable him to live according to Masonic line and rule. All these are veiled because Freemasonry does not communicate its secrets indiscriminately. A Mason must properly prepare himself, mentally and spiritually, at every stage of his Masonic journey to understand their meaning.

O.F.F. · Apr 5, 2010

Here is the second part of the article in my previous post:

SYMBOLISM OF THE FIRST DEGREE

Like unto that of a man blindfolded and carried away by robbers from his own country is a man’s condition. The folds of cloth over his eyes being removed by a friend, he recovers the use of his eyes and slowly finds his way home, step by step, inquiring at each stage. So also, the good teacher instructs the seeker of Truth and helps him to unloose his bonds of desire.

Chandogya Upanishad 6: 14:1/3

To open their eyes and to turn them from darkness to light. Acts 26:18

Truth, penance, understanding and purity are essential requisites for this revelation of the Brahman within. When the heart is cleansed, Brahman is revealed, and He is seen shining like a burning light within oneself.

Mundaka Upanishad 3:1:5

From darkness lead me to Light.

Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 3:28

Man is essentially a creature of Light, whose existence in this world is in a state of darkness or ignorance. The ceremony of initiation depicts the first step in the spiritual quest; awakening from ignorance, and the search for light. Its climax is therefore, the restoration of light. The ceremony starts with the first stage of our existence, birth. The candidate enters in darkness, after having been divested of everything valuable, to show that we are born with nothing. After affirming his faith in God, he is taken round the lodge, its flooring representing the joys and sorrows of our chequered existence, and undergoes repeated trials and tribulations. Persevering in his quest, he approaches the East, which is the source of all Light, his steps growing bolder as he does so. Light is now ‘restored’ to him, and the cabletow, the emblem of his bondage, is removed. He is now permitted to wear the apron, that symbol of honourable labour, to imply that he should work ceaselessly on building himself. He is placed in the Northeast to indicate that the foundation of the building is completed - that from the stage of youth and learning, he has passed to adulthood.

But the heart is not fit to perceive Wisdom and Truth until and unless it is purified from every baneful and malignant passion. So the first degree is also one of purgation. The force of conscience knocks off the vices and imperfections from the rough ashlar i.e. the candidate. He is taught to control his desires, have charity towards man, and faith and hope in God, so that as a living stone, he is prepared for that ‘ spiritual house not made with hands’.

SYMBOLISM OF THE SECOND DEGREE

And one only path between them both, even between the fire and the water, so small that there could but one man go there at once.

2 Esdras 7:8

Like the sharp edge of a razor is that path, so the wise say—hard to tread and difficult to cross.

Katha Upanishad 3:14

Be free from the pairs of opposites, ever balanced, free from desire and avarice, and established in the self.

Bhagavad Gita 2: 45

The Purusha, no bigger than a thumb, is the inner Self, ever seated in the heart of man. He is known by the mind, which controls knowledge and is perceived in the heart. They who know Him become immortal.

Svetasvatara Upanishad 3:13

From the unreal lead me to the real.

Brihadranyaka Upanishad 3:28

Two powerful symbols -the two great pillars and the winding staircase dominate the Second degree. As the Fellowcraft approaches the temple, he passes between two great pillars, climbs up a winding staircase, and receives his just wages. The two pillars, like fire and water, stand for the ‘ pairs of opposites’, encountered in life, pleasure and pain, victory and defeat, praise and abuse, wealth and poverty. The candidate must warily tread the difficult path, while wisely maintaining equal distance between them.

The winding staircase represents Man's instinct to rise, to excel, to explore the unknown. Climbing the winding staircase marks his progress in the spiritual path: That his intellectual faculty has so risen that it even reaches the ‘ throne of God himself ‘.

The candidate - now a perfect ashlar - learns that the sacred symbol he has been seeking is in the centre of the building, i.e. in his heart. This knowledge is the just wage he receives for his labour, and is illustrated by the sign of (a Fellowcraft). The second degree thus signifies intellectual development culminating in knowledge of God.

SYMBOLISM OF THE THIRD DEGREE

It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption.

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

I Corinthians: 15:42-44

Leave sin and evil, seek anew thy dwelling, and bright with glory wear another body.

Rig Veda: 10:014:08

I know the great Purusha, who is luminous, like the sun and beyond darkness. Only by knowing Him does one pass over death; there is no other way to the Supreme Goal.

Svetasvatara Upanishad 3:15

There are three gateways to hell, which destroy the self - lust, greed and anger. Renounce these three.

Bhagavad Gita 16:25

From death lead me to immortality.
Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 3:28

The third degree is replete with many interesting symbols. The quest for Light is depicted as a drama, with the importance of the centre, which was only hinted at in the previous degree, being stressed. The three ruffians, stationed at the three entrances, show that one is destroyed from within oneself by the three deadly sins – desire, greed and anger. The f.p.o.f (five points of fellowship) depict universal brotherhood, and instruct him on the duties he owes to his fellowmen. The tragedy of Hiram Abiff teaches us that, Good, even if temporarily overcome and buried by Evil, will ultimately emerge triumphant and be adored, while equally, justice will inexorably overtake Evil, and will mete out the punishment it deserves.

The candidate now comes to the end of his journey. Abandoning all attachment to ‘ worldly possessions’, and overcoming the fear of death, he walks over the tomb of transgression. But the purification and knowledge of the previous degrees avail him naught in experiencing God. They prove a slip. So, with a more firm hold on his faith, he surrenders his baser self, and is raised as the higher self, to a mystical union with the Supreme. Recovery of The penal sign symbolises this regeneration.

The ceremony of raising is at once sublime and surreal, and is the zenith of his Masonic experience.

CONCLUSION

We have now established that Freemasonry has synthesised the essence of different religions, which it teaches through its symbolism. Each of its symbols and allegories was culled from the wisdom of many faiths, and had a definite background and meaning when it was conceived. But while being handed down over centuries they have been mutated and modified gradually, till their original purpose and purport were forgotten. Freemasonry has the potential to become a great unifying force, which can to demolish all barriers, and destroy all differences that keep men apart. Brethren of all faiths can empathise with it, if only they can understand and practise its teachings. However we are more concerned with becoming expert in the punctilious observance of the ritual, than with its message. Should we continue to thus prefer form over substance, preserve the husk and discard the kernel, we shall be retaining only empty symbols and reducing Freemasonry to a mechanical rendering of the ritual. Symptoms like dwindling attendance and declining membership are already in evidence, and if left untreated much longer, could well result in the end of the order.

Freemasonry is too priceless a heritage to be permitted to perish through sheer apathy. It has to be nurtured and preserved. We have all been charged with making daily advancements in Masonic knowledge; a duty seldom discharged. We owe it to the institution, and to ourselves, to delve into the meaning of the symbols and the emblems, that the true beauty of Freemasonry may once again be unfolded to us.

Throw wide open the shutters of your minds and imagination. Learn to see in Masonry something more than a parochial system enjoining elementary morality, performing perfunctory and meaningless rites and serving as an agreeable accessory to social life. Look to find it in a living philosophy ... realise that its secrets, which are many and valuable, are not upon the surface ... that its mysteries are eternal ones that treat of the Spirit ... W.L Wilmhurst - The Meaning of Masonry

MASONIC SYMBOLISM AND VEDANTA
by W.Bro.Chakravarthy Sampath Madhavan
Lodge Jyothi # 253, Salem
Grand Lodge of India. (emphasis added)

O.F.F. · Apr 5, 2010

The VSL (i.e. Volume of Sacred Law) in Freemasonry is that book deemed "sacred" by the predominant religion of the country in which a Grand Lodge presides. It is regarded as the "Great Light" in Masonry. So in Muslim countries, the Great Light of Masonry is the Qu'ran, and in US lodges it is usually the Holy Bible; often the King James Version (KJV).

Wayne showed in an earlier post where the Bible is opened during each of the Craft degrees. He positioned them as if to suggest, that is the case in ALL of Masonry, rather than specifying that is ONLY the case in most US lodges. For the readers understanding, I submit the following passages that, to my knowledge, is where the Qu'ran is open for the first 3 degrees in Freemasonry.

FIRST DEGREE is opened to Suratu-l-Imran (The Family of Imran) 3:103
SECOND DEGREE is opened to Suratu-l-Baqarah (The Cow) 2:255
THIRD DEGREE is opened to Suratu-l-Buruj (The Stars, or The Zodiac) 85:12 – 16

Devoted Christian know better than to join a religious fraternity that refers to any VSL as the "Great Light," when the Holy Bible is the ONLY revealed will of God, and therefore the ONLY Great Light of Scripture that even exists. Masonic membership is a clear violation of the First Commandment, because it gives tacit approval to place the Word of God on the same "level" as the false scriptures of false religions who worship false gods.

Allow me to close this post with this statement from one of the eminent Masonic authors of Freemasonry:

The Holy Bible is always referred to as "The Great Light" or "The Great Light in Masonry," in this country which is predominantly Christian. The practice may be and often is different in other lands. What is vital and unchangeable, a Landmark of the Order (a further discussion of Landmarks is given later, see pages 159-163) is that a Volume of the Sacred Law be open upon the Masonic altar whenever the lodge is open. A lodge wholly Jewish may prefer to use only the Old Testament; in Turkey and Persia the Koran would be used as the V.S.L. of the Mohammedan; Brahmins would use the Vedas. In the Far East where Masonic lodges have members of many races and creeds it is customary to have several holy books upon the altar that the initiate may choose that which is to him the most sacred.

The Holy Bible, our Great Light in Masonry, is opened upon our altars. Upon it lie the other Great Lights - the Square and the Compasses. Without all three no Masonic lodge can exist, much less open or work. Together with the warrant from the Grand Lodge they are indispensable.

The Bible on the altar is more than the rule and guide of our faith. It is one of the greatest of Freemasonry's symbols. For the Bible is here a symbol of all holy books of all faiths. It is the Masonic way of setting forth that simplest and most profound of truths which Masonry has made so peculiarly her own: that there is a way, there does run a road on which men "of all creeds and of every race" may travel happily together, be their differences of religious faith what they may. In his private devotions a man may petition God or Jehovah, Allah or Buddha, Mohammed or Jesus; he may call upon the God of Israel or the Great First Cause. In the Masonic Lodge he hears humble petition to the Great Architect of the Universe, finding his own deity under that name.

A hundred paths may wind upward around a mountain; at the top they meet. Freemasonry opens the Great Light upon her altar not as one book of one faith, but as all books of all faiths, the book of the Will of the Great Architect, read in what language, what form, what shape we will. It is as all-inclusive as the symbols which lie upon it. (emphasis added)

INTRODUCTION TO FREEMASONRY - ENTERED APPRENTICE by CARL H. CLAUDY

This work of Carl Claudy's is, by the way, yet one of many of his, which are featured among the various Grand Lodge libraries of the Masonic world.

Rev Wayne · Apr 5, 2010

O.F.F. said:
Wayne showed in an earlier post where the Bible is opened during each of the Craft degrees. He positioned them as if to suggest, that is the case in ALL of Masonry, rather than specifying that is ONLY the case in most US lodges. For the readers understanding, I submit the following passages that, to my knowledge, is where the Qu'ran is open for the first 3 degrees in Freemasonry.

Sorry, dude, but you know as well as I do, that if I pulled a stunt like this and tried to make this or any OTHER claim on the basis of "to my knowledge," I'd be told rather quickly why that dog won't hunt. I assume I don't have to detail it for you either, so:

Why not post something that actually ADDRESSES what we've been talking about, which is, CONTENT in Masonry, and NOT "what book is on the altar, or where it is turned to?

And while we're at it, I don't think you posted one, so:

SOURCE, PLEASE?

Rev Wayne · Apr 5, 2010

The only place Masonic ritual makes these specific references, is where the Bible is opened for each degree, only in US lodges where the predominant religion of the country is Christian, and the predominant VSL is the Holy Bible.

Can't seem to stick with the truth, no matter what point comes up, can you Michael? Why don't you check the Bessel website list of places where it is turned to, and tell me how many you find there with any OTHER "sacred book" listed, or pages listed that they are turned to? By the way, you will also find out there, that your claim is FALSE that they are ONLY in US lodges.

Everywhere else in US Masonic rituals where Scripture is quoted it is done so out-of-context, and there is NEVER a biblical reference made where they do it.

Out of context: you have always claimed this, but to this date you have never shown it to be so.

"Never a biblical reference": This claim is just plain bizarre. Like I told you, citing from Ahiman Rezon alone would have necessitated multiple posts where I cited biblical content in our rituals.

But like all your MANY false claims, this one too is easily refuted, and I am always more than happy to do so.

First, I make the stipulation that when I speak of "Masonic ritual," I speak of both the presentation during the degree work and the materials which over the course of time have been made monitorial (which should have been obvious, since what I quoted and you are responding to, was all cited from the monitor--I just felt it needed to be stated, given your equivocations and never-ending attempts at "death of a thousand qualifications"). There are not only biblical references along with many other citations of Scripture, there are also extensive portions of commentary upon them as well. So what I shall do in response to this claim, is to cite each reference where the Bible references are cited in the monitorial work, as well as the sections which, in themselves, constitute direct Bible commentary, or direct biblical allusion in reference to symbolism in Masonry.

Just after the reading of Psalm 133 in the EA ritual, we find:

The great teaching of this Psalm is Brotherly Love, that virtue which forms the most prominent tenet of the Masonic Order. And it teaches the lesson, too, precisely as we do, by a symbol, comparing it to the precious ointment used in the consecration of the High Priest, whose delightful perfume filled the whole place with its odor. The ointment was poured upon the head in such quantity, that, being directed by the anointer in different ways in the form of a cross, it flowed at length down the beard, and finally dropped from the flowing skirts of the priestly garment.
The fifteen Psalms, from the 120th to the 134th, inclusive, of which this, of course, is one, are called by the Hebrews, "songs of degrees," because they were sung on the fifteen steps ascending from the court of Israel to the court of the women of the Temple. (p. 66-67)

The following passage of Scripture is here used:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be Light; and there was Light. (p. 71)

But what mind can conceive, or what pen portray, that terrible convulsion of nature, that awful disentanglement of its elements, which must have accompanied the Divine command, "Let there be Light!" The attempt to describe it would be a presumptuous task. We feel, when we meditate on the subject, that stillness and silence must have fled before the Almighty Voice, and the earth itself have trembled in its new existence, when the gloomy pall of darkness was rolled as a curtain from the face of nature. (p. 72)

When at last your trembling soul stands naked and alone before the Great Judgment, may it be your portion to hear from Him who is the Judge Supreme: "Well done, thou good and faithful servant, enter now into the joys of the Lord." (p. 76)

The Operative Masons at Jerusalem, from whom we date our origin, were occupied in the construction of an earthly and material temple, to be dedicated to the service and worship of God--a house in which the mighty Jehovah was to dwell visibly by the Shekinah, and whence He was by Urim and Thummim, to send forth His oracles for the government and direction of His chosen people.
The Speculative Mason is engaged in the construction of a spiritual temple in his heart, pure and spotless, fit for the dwelling place of Him who is the author of purity; where God is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth, and whence every evil thought and unruly passion are to be banished, as the sinner and the Gentile were excluded from the sanctuary of the Jewish Temple.
In the symbolic language of Masonry, therefore, the twenty-four inch gauge is a symbol of time well employed; the common gavel, of the purification of the heart. (p. 79-80)

Various passages of Scripture are referred to in this section as elucidating the traditions of Masonry on the subject of the Temple.
And we will cut wood out of Lebanon, as much as thou shalt need; and we will bring it to thee in floats by sea to Joppa; and thou shalt carry it up to Jeruslem.--2 Chron. II, 16. (p. 82)

And the house, when it was in building, was built of stone made ready before it was brought thither; so that there was neither hammer, nor axe, nor any tool of iron heard in the house while it was in building.--1 Kings VI, 7. (p. 83)

Josephus says, "The whole structure of the Temple was made with great skill, of polished stones, and those laid together so very harmoniously and smoothly, that there appeared to the spectators no sign of any hammer or any other instrument of architecture, but as if, without any use of them, the entire materials had naturally united themselves together, so that the agreement of one part with another seemed rather to have been natural, than to have arisen from the force of tools upon them." (p. 83)

Now this was the manner in former time in Israel governing redeeming and concerning changing, for to confirm all things; a man plucked off his shoe, and gave it to his neighbor; and this was a testimony in Israel.--Ruth IV, 7 (p. 84)

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.--Matthew VII, 7. (p. 84)

The idea, that the Lodge is a symbol of the world, is still carried out. It was the belief of the ancients that the heavens, or the roof of the world, was supported by pillars. By these pillars, some suppose that the mountains are alluded; but in reference to a passage in Job XXVI, 11, where it is said "The pillars of heaven tremble," Noyes thinks that "it is more probable that heaven is represented as an immense edifice, supported on lofty columns, like a temple." (p. 91)

P. 92 (entire page) is an artist's depiction of Jacob's ladder as described in his dream. I've tried to locate information about the source of the picture but to no avail. A small inscription of a name can be seen in the lower right, and magnified, it appears to be "Jecorhous," but an internet search produced no result.

A Lodge is situated due east and west, because, when Moses crossed the Red Sea, being pursued by Pharaoh and his host, he erected on the other side, by divine command, a tabernacle, which he placed due east and west, to receive the first rays of the rising sun, and to commemorate that mighty east wind by which their miraculous deliverance was effected. This tabernacle was an exact pattern of King Solomon's Temple, of which every Lodge is a representation, and it is, or ought, therefore, to be placed due east and west. (p. 99-100)

In six days God created the heavens and the earth, and rested upon the seventh day; the seventh, therefore, our ancient brethren consecrated as a day of rest from their labors; thereby enjoying frequent opportunities to contemplate the glorious works of creation, and to adore their great Creator. (p. 114)

For he cast two pillars of brass, of eighteen cubits high apiece; and a line of twelve cubits did compass either of them about.--1 Kings VII, 15. (p. 114)

Also he made before the house two pillars of thirty and five cubits high, and the chapiter that was on the top of each of them was five cubits.--2 Chron. III, 15. (p. 114)

And he made two chapiters of of molten brass, to set upon the tops of the pillars; the height of the chapiter three cubits; the height of the one chapiter was five cubits, and the height of the other chapiter was five cubits.--1 Kings VII, 16. (p. 114)

The height of the one pillar was eighteen cubits, and the chapiter upon it was brass; and the height of the chapiter three cubits; and the wreathen work, and pomegranates upon the chapiter around about, all of brass; and like unto these had the second pillar with wreathen work.--2 Kings XXV, 16. (p. 114)

The discrepancy as to the height of the pillars as given in the book of Kings and in Chronicles is to be reconciled by supposing that in the book of Kings the pillars are spoken of separately, and that in Chronicles their aggregate height is calculated; and the reason that in this latter book their united height is placed at 35 cubits, instead of 36, which would be the double of 18, is because they are there measured as they appear with the chapiters upon them. Now half a cubit of each pillar was concealed in what Dr. Lightfoot calls "the hole of the chapiter," that is, half a cubit's depth of the lower edge of the chapiter covered the top of the pillar, making each pillar apparently only 17 1/2 cubits high, or the two, 35 cubits, as laid down in the book of Chronicles.
In a similar way we reconcile the difference as to the height of the chapiters. In 1 Kings and 2 Chronicles the chapiters are said to be five cubits high, while in 2 Kings their height is described as being only three cubits. But it will be noticed that it immediately follows in the same place, that "there was a wreathen work and pomegranates upon the chapiter around about." Now the expression is conclusive that the height of the chapiters was estimated exclusive and independent of the wreathen work round about them, which was two cubits more, and this added to the three cubits of the chapiter proper, will make the five cubits spoken of in all other parts of Scripture. (p. 114-16)

Here a symbol of Plenty is introduced, and proper explanations are given as to the proper answers to the following questions:
What does it denote?
How was it represented?
Why was it instituted?

The passages of Scripture which are referred to in this part of the section will be found in Judges XII, 1-6. The Vulgate version gives a periphrastic translation of a part of the 6th verse, as follows: "Say, therefore, Shibboleth, which being interpreted is an ear of corn." the same word in Hebrew signifies a rapid stream of water, from the root SHaBaL, to flow copiously. The too common error of speaking, in this part of the ritual, of a "water-ford" instead of a "water-fall," which is the correct word, must be carefully avoided. A water-fall is an emblem of plenty, because it indicates an abundance of water. A water-ford, for the converse reason, is, if any symbol at all, a symbol of scarcity. (p. 127-28)

Immediately following the monitorial degree work, is a section detailing the qualities of a Mason, with this description:

As the Bible is the first Great Light presented to a candidate, the following quotations from that inspired book are recommended to his previous perusal:

"Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?
"He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
"He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbor, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbor.
"In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoreth them that fear the Lord. He that sweareth to his own heart, and changeth not.
"He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent." Psalm XV.
"Who shall ascend into the hills of the Lord? or who shall stand in his holy place?
He that hath clean hands and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully."--Psalm XXIV, 3, 4.
"What man is he that desireth life, and loveth many days, that he may see good?
"Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.
"Depart from evil and do good; seek peace, and pursue it."--Psalm XXXIV, 12-14.
Then let the candidate prepare himself to say:
"I will take heed to my ways, that I sin not with my tongue; I will keep my mouth with a bridle, while the wicked is before me."--Psalm XXXIX, 1.
"I will wash mine hands in innocency; so will I compass thine altar, O Lord."--Psalm XXVI, 6.

Sorry to disappoint you, Mr. "there are no references," but there are PLENTY, with lots of other material to boot.

Rev Wayne · Apr 5, 2010

O.F.F. said:
As for that list coming from the Bible, again that only exist in YOUR MIND, as YOU interprete it; which was my point.

Yet ANOTHER false claim, as I will show, by comparing numerous of the examples listed, side by side with the scripture references to which they allude:

Most holy and glorious Lord God, the great Architect of the Universe, the Giver of all good gifts and graces! (James 1:17)

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. (James 1:17)

Thou hast promised that "where two or three are gathered together in Thy name Thou wilt be in the midst of them and bless them." (Matthew 18:20)

For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. (Matthew 18:20)

May brotherly love prevail, (Hebrews 13:1)

Let brotherly love continue. (Hebrews 13:1)

Its dimensions are unlimited, and its covering no less than the canopy of heaven. (Isaiah 40:22)

He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. (Isaiah 40:22)

the theological ladder, which Jacob, in his vision, saw ascending from earth to heaven; (Gen. 28:10-22)

And Jacob went out from Beersheba, and went toward Haran.
And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep.
And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

FAITH, HOPE and CHARITY, (1 Cor. 13:13)

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. (1 Cor. 13:13)

and which admonish us to have faith in God, (Mark 11:22, 1 Pet. 1:21)

And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

Do good unto all. Recommend it more especially "to the household of the faithful." (Galatians 6:10)

As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith. (Galatians 6:10)

for your work is with the Lord and your recompense with God. (Ruth 2:12)

The LORD recompense thy work, and a full reward be given thee of the LORD God of Israel, under whose wings thou art come to trust. (Ruth 2:12)
Finally, brethren, be ye all of one mind; live in peace, and may the God of love and peace delight to dwell with and bless you! (2 Cor. 13:11)

Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Thou, O God! knowest our down-sitting and our uprising, and understandest our thought afar off. . .(Psalm 139:2, Job 14:1-11, Isa. 45:17 )
(Shortened for post limit requirement)

First, the fuller version:

Thou, O God! knowest our down-sitting and our uprising, and understandest our thought afar off. Shield and defend us from the evil intentions of our enemies, and support us under the trials and afflictions we are destined to endure, while traveling through this vale of tears. Man, that is born of woman, is of few days, and full of trouble. He cometh forth as a flower, and is cut down; he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not. Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee; thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass; turn from him that he may rest, till he shall accomplish his day. For there is hope of a tree if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease. But the man dieth and wasteth away; yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up, so man lieth down and riseth not up, till the heavens shall be no more. Yet, O Lord! have compassion on the children of thy creation, administer them comfort in time of trouble, and save them with an everlasting salvation. So mote it be. Amen.

And then the verses listed:

Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.--Psalm 139:2

Man that is born of a woman is of few days and full of trouble.
He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not.
And doth thou open thine eyes upon such an one, and bringest me into judgment with thee?
Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.
Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;
Turn from him, that he may rest, till he shall accomplish, as an hireling, his day.
For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground;
Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant.
But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.--Job 14:1-11

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

I could go on, but I think anybody can see the obvious for themselves. Your problem, apparently, is in now knowing your Bible. And even after (allegedly anyway) coming to a greater knowledge of it some years ago, apparently you STILL don't know your Bible, or you wouldn't make such a ridiculous claim. I can only assume that by "out of context," you really were referring to "didn't cite word for word," or something else that has nothing to do with context. Just because they don't come complete with book, chapter, and verse references in every case, does not make their source any less the Bible. Besides, some of them, like the Job 14 passage, hardly misses being word for word. And really--you think the story of Jacob and the dream of the ladder was just "in my own mind," as if I made up the story of Jacob's ladder???

You are foolish to deny it, and making yourself look even more foolish with each false claim added to your total.

Rev Wayne · Apr 5, 2010

This work of Carl Claudy's is, by the way, yet one of many of his, which are featured among the various Grand Lodge libraries of the Masonic world.

As usual, it's not what you post, but what you ignore about what you post, that is the most significant:

The Holy Bible is always referred to as "The Great Light" or "The Great Light in Masonry," in this country which is predominantly Christian. The practice may be and often is different in other lands.

I'm not sure even Claudy understood the disjunct in this string of sentences. First he begins by talking about the Great Light, but then switches off and starts talking about Masonic "practice" and how it is "different in other lands." That's pretty obscure, but if by "practice" he was referring to "what other people call the "Great Light," then apparently in quoting him, you totally missed what was already posted in response to your recent claims about India. On the Grand Lodge website, in an article found there, an Indian Mason was referring to the Bible as the "Great Light" of Masonry. The whole idea that just because a lodge is in a land where Christianity and the Bible are not the dominating religion, some other book will be substituted for such terms as Masonry uses them in Christian countries, is thereby shown to be a bogus assumption. In the past, I have shown this very same point to you, illustrated by comments from other lands, for one, the Grand Lodge of Belgium, for another, Japan, yet apparently you do not even recall this. And what I have shown has been shown to be the case, EVEN IN PLACES WHERE ANOTHER BOOK OR BOOKS MAY BE FOUND ON THE ALTAR--the GL of India being a prime example, where there are five, and where, from the article cited, reference to "Great Light" was made in SPECIFIC REFERENCE TO THE BIBLE.

The Bible on the altar is more than the rule and guide of our faith. It is one of the greatest of Freemasonry's symbols. For the Bible is here a symbol of all holy books of all faiths. It is the Masonic way of setting forth that simplest and most profound of truths which Masonry has made so peculiarly her own: that there is a way, there does run a road on which men "of all creeds and of every race" may travel happily together, be their differences of religious faith what they may. In his private devotions a man may petition God or Jehovah, Allah or Buddha, Mohammed or Jesus; he may call upon the God of Israel or the Great First Cause. In the Masonic Lodge he hears humble petition to the Great Architect of the Universe, finding his own deity under that name.

I think you highlight incorrectly because you read him incorrectly. The BIBLE is what is proclaimed to be the greatest of "FREEMASONRY'S" symbols. You have tried to steer his comments to make it only about the U.S. The "here" that you have interpreted as the U.S. is not so, for he has just one sentence earlier loudly proclaimed it to be one of the greatest of FREEMASONRY'S symbols. The "here" then, is Freemasonry, not the U.S.

You have also totally blown by the fact that the last declaration made here is about what a Mason does "IN HIS PRIVATE DEVOTIONS." That is not a declaration about Masonry, it is a declaration about what these Masons do IN THEIR OWN PRIVATE TIME. You have also tried to make hay out of "finding his own deity under that name," which is a Claudy mis-statement, because "Grand Architect of the Universe" is clearly not a name. Nor is what it says, anything outrageous. As pointed out to you also, people of other religions will "find their own deity under the name" of "GOD" as we use the common generic word in English. But calling it a "name" is incorrect also, since clearly it is not, it is a generic word which can be used by English speakers who hail from other religions, to refer to a deity other than the God of the Bible. And you are inconsistent on this point, not to complain about Christians using this term in similar fashion as do Masons with GAOTU.

But all of this is pure smokescreen from you anyway, to avoid having to answer the challenge put before you, to cite from any Masonic ritual/monitor any direct citation from any other sacred book than the Bible.

Rev Wayne · Apr 5, 2010

O.F.F. said:
My introduction of Sanderson's work is not intended to address your challenge. It's being presented to further show the similarities of Masonry and pagan religions, some of which are primitive and ancient. And to underscore the fact that many Grand Lodges support his theory by virtue of the fact that their libraries contain his work.

And my rebuttal of it was explicitly clear. Just as Christian educators often have books on "recommended" reading lists is not a blanket endorsement of them, and neither can you make a case for it in Freemasonry. In fact, you can make even LESS of a case for it in Freemasonry, which welcomes freedom of thought. Therefore you have NOT made your case for any "support" of Sanderson, by its mere inclusion on a Masonic reading list. Or hadn't you noticed, that works by antimasons also appear there, like Prichard's Masonry Dissected? Next thing you know, you'll be trying to tell us that Grand Lodges "support" the opinions of ANTI-Masons who print their nonsense accusations against the lodge. I'll guarantee you they don't support them in any way; but there certainly ARE various materials put out by them that receive attention from Masons. S. Brent Morris, recently cited, is a good example, because in the primary publication for which he is known, he totally DISMANTLES several of those arguments with direct citations from their work, showing the lies and deceit upon which practically every one of them is built.

I must assume that when you say, "I notice you STILL have not come up with ONE citation from some other book" you must mean some other ritual, and not some other "sacred" book. Unless you missed the Hindu Masonic interpretation of ritual shown earlier:

I didn't miss it, what I DID miss was any DIRECT connection to the ritual. You keep trying to dodge what was said, by offering things that talk ABOUT the ritual or monitors, rather than any direct material FROM them.

"Chapter five has clear resonances with the first degree" is NOT "the Hindu sacred book QUOTED in the ritual," not in the same manner in which the ritual is SATURATED with DIRECT biblical content.

"Those with the vision of eternity can see that the imperishable soul is transcendental, eternal, and beyond the modes of nature" does NOT appear anywhere in the third degree. If it DID, I think anybody here will recognize by now, YOU WOULD HAVE ALREADY POSTED IT! The only REMOTELY CONCEIVABLE idea that can be seen in that line is the same thing Masonry affirms about the soul being immortal. But Masonry's reference, as you have been shown time and time again, does NOT "resonate" with the Hindu on that point at all, for one very CLEAR reason:

Thus we close the explanations of this degree with the solemn thought of death, which, without Revelation, is dark and gloomy; but the good Mason is suddenly revived by the ever-green and ever living sprig of Faith in the merits of the Lion of the tribe of Judah; which strengthens him with confidence and composure, to look forward to a blessed immortality; and doubts not, but in the glorious morn of the resurrection, his body will rise and become as incorruptible as his soul. ("Sprig of Acacia," Master Mason degree. This particular quote is from Texas manual, as our monitor does not make this material monitorial.)

So unless you can provide something that shows that a bodily resurrection is a part of Hindu belief, I'm afraid you have a LONG way to go to make your case. Maybe the person making that claim for it simply was not as familiar with it as he THOUGHT he was--and he CERTAINLY wasn't as familiar with it as YOU seem to think he was. A bodily resurrection is peculiar to the Christian religion.

The problem with you thinking you've shown anything by this, is the way you take the sentence which precedes all of this, as somehow making it all magically become a counter to what was proposed, when it is not:

In fact the Bhagavad-gita is replete with principles corresponding to Masonic practice

Probably no Mason would question that, because Masonry has said all along its principles are universal principles that apply across all religious boundaries. Sorry, but "principles corresponding t6o Masonic practice" does not describe anything but that: "corresponding principles." And "corresponding principles," in short, is NOT what the challenge was about, it was DIRECT CITATION in Masonry from some other "sacred book" than the Bible. So far, your response, as usual, has produced ZILCH that TRULY can be described as meeting that challenge.

we have to assume that since the VSL in India -- and other non-Christian countries -- most likely is NOT the Holy Bible, whatever VSL used must be opened at different places in their "sacred" book during each of the 3 degrees in the Blue Lodge.

Sorry, but you STILL struck out. What you are doing NOW is trying to shift the message by subterfuge, by substituting a straw man idea that we were discussing the book(s) on the altar. I assure you, we were NOT! We were talking about the CONTENT of the degree. And I CLEARLY showed, by citing from THEIR OWN DISCUSSIONS OF RITUAL, ON THEIR OWN GRAND LODGE WEBSITE ARTICLES--that your claim was FALSE, because every matter they discussed there, reflected matters identical to what we would find here--INCLUDING mentions of the Bible as the "Great Light," etc.

You have the same options and for the most part, the same resources as I do, surely you can prove me wrong, if I have cited from their webpage incorrectly?

Again, assuming everything else is the same, Masons in these countries are still going to interpret Masonic ritual and its symbolism from the perspective of their own religion.

MICHAEL MICHAEL MICHAEL MICHAEL MICHAEL MICHAEL MICHAEL MICHAEL! Of COURSE they will do that. Nobody has questioned that, nobody has challenged that, nobody is expecting you to deliver anything on that point.

Wake up, dude, and catch up with the discussion! We are NOT talking about "interpreting Masonic ritual and its symbolism from the perspective of their own religion"; what we ARE talking about is DIRECT CITATION IN MASONRY FROM ANY OTHER SACRED BOOK THAN THE BIBLE. Your straw man is exposed, and embarrassingly so, till you get on board with what is being requested.

O.F.F. · Apr 7, 2010

Wayne said:
Just as Christian educators often have books on "recommended" reading lists is not a blanket endorsement of them, and neither can you make a case for it in Freemasonry.

"Christian educators" could mean lots of things. It could mean some theologians, some professors at a seminary, or even a philosophy professor at a university who includes comparative religions as part of their curriculum. If so, who cares what their 'personal' libraries contain? So without any specific context your statement has no substance at all.

If your statement had any real validity, to refute my earlier evidence to the contrary in like manner, instead of saying "just as Christian educators" you would have said, "just as most Christian denominations;" and you would have shown proof that such "recommended" reading list exist among them. In contrast, what I provided was a list of 10 Masonic authoritative bodies (though there are many more), including the Mother of all Masonry, that feature a "recommended" list of damaging books that perpetuate the theory of the link between Freemasonry and ancient pagan mysteries.

So unless you can provide a similar "recommended" list of damaging books that perpetuate the theory of the link between Christianity and ancient pagan mysteries, published by 10 or more Christian denominational authoritative bodies, your point is not only moot, it's pointless and you have no case at all.

Wayne said:
So unless you can provide something that shows that a bodily resurrection is a part of Hindu belief, I'm afraid you have a LONG way to go to make your case.

No sir, Freemasonry requires for membership belief in the immortality of the soul, just as they require belief in any Supreme Being of choice. And, just like they do not specific which Supreme Being one must believe in to become a Mason, they do not specify the mode of immortality one must believe in either. So unless you can provide something that shows that a bodily resurrection cannot "Masonically" be viewed as "reincarnation" or any other form of immortality of the soul from a Hindu Mason's perspective, I'm afraid you have a LONG way to go to make your case.

Wayne said:
Probably no Mason would question that, because Masonry has said all along its principles are universal principles that apply across all religious boundaries.

No Mason would question it, but a truly devoted Christian would, especially a pastor, and would deem it unacceptable; because the principles found in the Holy Bible, NOT the Bhagavad-gita or any other false teaching, are the ONLY acceptable principles to follow.

Wake up, dude, and catch up with the discussion! We are NOT talking about "interpreting Masonic ritual and its symbolism from the perspective of their own religion"; what we ARE talking about is DIRECT CITATION IN MASONRY FROM ANY OTHER SACRED BOOK THAN THE BIBLE.

NO DUDE, you wake up! Yes we are talking about interpreting Masonic ritual and its symbolism from the perspective of their own religion, because that is precisely what Freemasonry is about. It's not about the 'words' contained in Masonic ritual or their source. It's about the symbolism in all of them as perceived by the Mason from his point of view. As Albert Pike said:

The symbolism of Masonry is the soul of Masonry. Every symbol of a Lodge is a religious teacher, the mute teacher also of morals and philosophy. It is in the ancient symbols and in the knowledge of their true meaning that the pre-eminence of Freemasonry over all others consists. (emphasis added)

See what he said, Wayne? Every symbol of a Lodge is a religious teacher, NOT a "Christian" teacher. As Masonry affirms, that 'religious teaching' comes from the perspective of how the Masonic student interprets its symbolism from the view point of his own religion. Therefore, finding DIRECT CITATIONS IN MASONRY FROM ANY OTHER SACRED BOOK THAN THE BIBLE, is a MOOT POINT!

Wayne said:
I'm not sure even Claudy understood the disjunct in this string of sentences.

Who cares what YOU think Claudy understood of his own writing; Masonic authoritative bodies understand him enough to carry his work in their libraries and feature them as recommended Masonic education material.

Wayne said:
I think you highlight incorrectly because you read him incorrectly. The BIBLE is what is proclaimed to be the greatest of "FREEMASONRY'S" symbols. You have tried to steer his comments to make it only about the U.S. The "here" that you have interpreted as the U.S. is not so, for he has just one sentence earlier loudly proclaimed it to be one of the greatest of FREEMASONRY'S symbols. The "here" then, is Freemasonry, not the U.S.

Wrong again, it is YOU who have misread him and the declarations of Freemasonry.

The Bible on the altar is more than the rule and guide of our faith. It is one of the greatest of Freemasonry's symbols. For the Bible is here a symbol of all holy books of all faiths. It is the Masonic way of setting forth that simplest and most profound of truths which Masonry has made so peculiarly her own: that there is a way, there does run a road on which men "of all creeds and of every race" may travel happily together, be their differences of religious faith what they may. In his private devotions a man may petition God or Jehovah, Allah or Buddha, Mohammed or Jesus; he may call upon the God of Israel or the Great First Cause. In the Masonic Lodge he hears humble petition to "the" (singular) Great Architect of the Universe, finding his own deity under that name. (emphasis added)

As the readers can clearly see, the BIBLE is what is proclaimed by Masonry to be a symbol of all holy books of all faiths.

Wayne said:
You have also totally blown by the fact that the last declaration made here is about what a Mason does "IN HIS PRIVATE DEVOTIONS." That is not a declaration about Masonry, it is a declaration about what these Masons do IN THEIR OWN PRIVATE TIME.

No sir, it is YOU who have totally blown by the fact that the last declaration made by Freemasonry is that regardless of the name of "God" used by a Mason, he can find his own deity under the NAME, Great Architect of the Universe (GAOTU). Again, this is unacceptable to truly devoted Christians and their pastors, and it represents a dilemma for any Mason who professes to be a Christian.

Rev Wayne · Apr 7, 2010

O.F.F. said:
"Christian educators" could mean lots of things. It could mean some theologians, some professors at a seminary, or even a philosophy professor at a university who includes comparative religions as part of their curriculum. If so, who cares what their 'personal' libraries contain?

So you prefer ignorance, then? Hmmmm…..

O.F.F. said:
If your statement had any real validity, to refute my earlier evidence to the contrary in like manner, instead of saying "just as Christian educators" you would have said, "just as most Christian denominations;"

You’re laying way more significance on the choice than I ever gave it. All it has to be to be a valid point is, some significant segment of Christian thinking. I simply chose the expression because educational facilities are the most likely to have suggested reading lists, DUH.

and you would have shown proof that such "recommended" reading list exist among them.

Gee, Mike, I took it as such a given, I figured anybody reading would understand the truth of it. Are you trying to suggest that educational facilities do not provide recommended reading lists for courses they offer at their particular institution? I have had recommended reading in every class I ever took, some refer to it as such, others simply provide a fairly comprehensive bibliography covering the particular subject being taught.

Besides, we already had this conversation not too long ago, and as I pointed out then, a comparative religions course, or a course on religious movements, or a course on cults, will have as “recommended reading” some of the materials put out by the various groups being studied. I have in my possession a Book of Mormon used in a class which covered some of its materials. I also possess several of Mary Baker Eddy’s writings, others by Ellen G. White, Charles Taze Russell, Marcus Borg, Dominic Crossan, and others. Owning them and/or reading them hardly makes me a Mormon, a Christian Scientist, a Jehovah’s Witness, or a supporter of the Jesus Seminar beliefs. It just means that, unlike some Christians who think we should just stick our noses in the sand and remain ignorant, I take an interest in seeing such things for myself, and forming opinions based on the content, and not on what someone else interprets from them.

It is the same way with Freemasonry, and you really don’t seem to have a clue about the purpose of reading lists, regardless of what group or institution compiles them. Maybe instead of just making ridiculous claims off the top of your head, you should get your head out of the sand long enough to READ what people have to say, This is ABUNDANTLY true in the case of Masonic reading lists, they are no different than any other group who would have you make informed opinions after reading both sides of whatever the issue may be. Perhaps if you were to consider them with anything resembling intellectual honesty, rather than perusing them merely to pick out your next comment to target, you wouldn’t have missed THIS from the PA. Grand Lodge page that appears before you even get to anything on the reading list:

This book list for the recommended reading is composed of books that the committee feels have the potential to provide Masonic Knowledge to the readers, but even more significant will stimulate the reader to think.

Please note that the appearance of these books on the recommended list is not to be taken as an endorsement by the committee of either the authors or the contents. Indeed there are books, or parts thereof, on this list with which probably all members of the committee would find fault.

It is the firm belief of the members of the Committee that all books read should stimulate the reader to think and, thus, books that appear here and with which you may disagree, are recommended for that purpose.

Many thousands of books concerning Freemasonry have been written during the past 300 years, with additional titles published every month. This list merely scratches the surface and is not intended to confine the reader to these titles alone. Where the participant has found a work that he feels worthy, the Committee would appreciate his comments regarding possible future inclusion.

And please have the honesty not to deny ever seeing this.

So unless you can provide a similar "recommended" list of damaging books that perpetuate the theory of the link between Christianity and ancient pagan mysteries, published by 10 or more Christian denominational authoritative bodies, your point is not only moot, it's pointless and you have no case at all.

Say what? You’ll have to explain your direction with this one, you totally went off the deep end and lost me with that one.

No sir, Freemasonry requires for membership belief in the immortality of the soul, just as they require belief in any Supreme Being of choice. And, just like they do not specific which Supreme Being one must believe in to become a Mason, they do not specify the mode of immortality one must believe in either. So unless you can provide something that shows that a bodily resurrection cannot "Masonically" be viewed as "reincarnation" or any other form of immortality of the soul from a Hindu Mason's perspective, I'm afraid you have a LONG way to go to make your case.

The fact is, I’ve looked for a bodily resurrection in the beliefs of other religions, and have not found it anywhere. And I have no case to make, because in the citation I already provided, you HAVE the “Masonic” understanding of it, that “in the glorious morn of the resurrection, his body will rise and become as incorruptible as his soul.” I’m surprised you don’t recognize it, it’s from 1 Corinthians 15: “The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.” (v. 42) “For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pas the saying that is written, ‘Death is swallowed up in victory.” (v. 52-54)

In fact, come to think of it, how would you NOT know this, since this Corinthian passage is commonly found in Masonic burial rituals?

The fact that you seem to think this came from somewhere else, or can be understood differently, just shows that you do not recognize the source. Once again I say to you, the biggest problem you seem to be having with all of this is your apparent lack of any familiarity with the Bible.

No Mason would question it, but a truly devoted Christian would, especially a pastor, and would deem it unacceptable; because the principles found in the Holy Bible, NOT the Bhagavad-gita or any other false teaching, are the ONLY acceptable principles to follow.

Are you totally ignorant of the many direct comparisons that can be found among the religions of the world, or do you just automatically make comments like this without having the least clue what you’re talking about? Most religious “sacred books” have a code of laws or “commandments” very similar to the Decalogue. There are also many points of comparison between what they teach. This was shown to be so on this very forum, though a different thread, not all that long ago, concerning that which we call a central tenet of the Christian faith, the Golden Rule. After having been presented with the evidence of it, you yourself acknowledged it:

I concede, the Ethic of Reciprocity [Mike’s chosen name for the Golden Rule] is a moral virtue found in many religious systems. Your point has been established, so now let's move on from there.

Yet now you try to tell us there are no principles in any other sacred books that are comparable to the principles found in the Bible—even though we have your direct statement to the contrary?

One or the other claim is necessarily false, adding one more to this total of false claims you keep racking up.

Therefore, finding DIRECT CITATIONS IN MASONRY FROM ANY OTHER SACRED BOOK THAN THE BIBLE, is a MOOT POINT!

And to arrive at this facetious conclusion, the ironic part of it is, that your “PROOF” of your point is none other than the illustrious Albert Pike. This is just too comical for words.

Every symbol of a Lodge is a religious teacher, NOT a "Christian" teacher.

I never made any such statement, so I have no idea why you’re tossing this one at me at all. I think your problem is, you are STILL treating everything you choose to respond with, from the standpoint of “interpretation,” which has nothing to do with the challenge that was presented; while I have consistently pointed to the CONTENT and its SOURCE, which has been undeniable. There has been no "interpretation" of the content I have presented, I have simply recognized the Bible as the source, and presented it as such. You can keep talking past my comments till you’re blue in the face, but you will not change the standpoint upon which I have made my remarks. I will make SURE the readers are not fooled by your attempted deception, and will continue to keep before you (and them) the facts of the matter. You are still trying to bumfuddle your way around having to produce anything that will serve as a REAL response to the challenge to show something from some other religious source than the Bible, and I will continue to call you on it as long as you continue to do so.

Who cares what YOU think Claudy understood of his own writing; Masonic authoritative bodies understand him enough to carry his work in their libraries and feature them as recommended Masonic education material.

Now if you REALLY want a “MOOT” point, this would certainly be the one. What “Masonic authoritative bodies” put on their reading lists, as already shown from the citation from Pa. Concerning theirs, does not automatically “prove” anything about what they “understand” about it at all.

As the readers can clearly see, the BIBLE is what is proclaimed by Masonry to be a symbol of all holy books of all faiths.

As the readers can clearly see, you are STILL all over the map with this, in your attempt to deal with ANYTHING but what I challenged. What Masonry proclaims ABOUT the Bible is irrelevant to what I challenged, to show something of content from any other sacred book. What Masonry CONTAINS was the basis of my statement and my challenge, and will continue to be so. You can huff and puff all you wish about who SAYS this and who SAYS that, I will continue to stand on what Masonry CONTAINS, and NOT on what HE says, SHE says, or YOU say.

No sir, it is YOU who have totally blown by the fact that the last declaration made by Freemasonry is that regardless of the name of "God" used by a Mason, he can find his own deity under the NAME, Great Architect of the Universe (GAOTU). Again, this is unacceptable to truly devoted Christians and their pastors, and it represents a dilemma for any Mason who professes to be a Christian.

I’m not blowing by anything. It has already been shown to you that it works the same with the generic Christian word "God," and that despite that fact, you CONTINUE to speak of the Christian "God." Well, if you can do that, then you are inconsistent with it yourself and have no room to criticize.

No, I’d just like to see you try to come up with something directly from some other sacred book, anywhere in the rituals or monitorial content of Masonry. So far you have not.

Can a Christian be a Freemason???

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

Well-Known Member

An Ex-Mason for Jesus

An Ex-Mason for Jesus

An Ex-Mason for Jesus

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

An Ex-Mason for Jesus

An Ex-Mason for Jesus

An Ex-Mason for Jesus

An Ex-Mason for Jesus

An Ex-Mason for Jesus

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

An Ex-Mason for Jesus

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

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