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My point about Romans 9 was that it doesn't support what you think it does.Sorry - but I don't consider anything that Paul wrote irrelevant.
To point out the obvious fallacy of the Calvinist claim that Christ didn't die for everyone. Instead of your question, can you refute my claim that Calvinism provides an excuse for the hell dwellers? Or are you just frustrated that you know you can't, so you ask a question to change the subject?
Truth always trumps false claims. Can you refute my claim that Calvinism provides an excuse for hell dwellers? Or not?
I can think whatever you wish to think.
And I certainly CAN'T abide a Calvinist thinking that cannot be proven from Scripture.
I have got it right. Calvinism cannot prove its claims, plain and simple.
Are you uncomfortable with the fact that your theology that provides an excuse for the hell dwellers? Or not?
The excuse for hell dwellers demonstrates the absurdity of your position that Christ didn't die for all, but only some.
Biblical theology says that no one has any excuse.
It certainly doesn't say that Christ died for only the elect,
or that God chooses who will believe.
And it doesn't give any hell dweller an excuse for being there, as does Calvinism.
I don't have a problem My theology doesn't provide an excuse for anyone. Yours does.That's your problem, not mine.
So, by your repeated question, you really can't deny that Calvinism does provide an excuse for all the hell dwellers, huh.I ask again, of what use is an "excuse"? Will it make a difference?
The reason, as I have been pointing out, is for the ones in heaven, Christ died ONLY for them. And for the hell dwellers, Christ didn't die for them. And you can't deny that. That is the reason.None in hell will be looking for an excuse, because they will know full well why they are there.
Yet, you cannot disprove the charge, can you?It's a red herring, that means nothing.
LOL Aren't you aware that this thread is in the "debate a Calvinist" folder?I didn't get the memo that you were appointed the Calvinist-corrector here. Care to provide me a copy?
Ah, yes, the ever-ready smokescreen, to deflect the issue away from your problem. LOLThe only thing I'm uncomfortable with is the smell from that dead red herring you keep dragging around. It stinks!
Can you refute my charge? Can you prove me wrong?You mean the red herring false "excuse" you invented, just to have something to oppose Calvinists with. All it demonstrates is absurdity on the part of the one inventing it.
Well, none of you have proven my charge wrong. All you have done is disagree with it and whine about it.Which is what Calvinism and Calvinists say. To say that we don't is to bear false witness, which is a sin. Stop it.
OK, thanks for NOT noting book and chapter. I went back through the thread, and you cited Acts 17:11 in one and Rom 9:19-23 in another.wrong - see vs 10-11
wrong - see vs 18
Really? If Calvinism doesn't provide an excuse for the hell dwellers, why is it that ONLY the elect, for whom Christ died in your view, go to heaven, while ONLY the non-elect, for whom Christ didn't die in your view, go to hell?You have an incorrect assessment on what Calvinism teaches regarding hell.
I always defer to the apostle Paul's response to this question (or variations of it) whenever it gets asked. See Romans 9:19-23. Your issue is not with Calvinists but with the New Testament writers. Something to think about....
People are in hell for sin, not because their sin wasn't atoned for.
Pretty succinct.
Indeed, God owes us nothing. But, He is love, and He is not willing that any should perish.
Then if you're right He saves us all and Hell is a story Jesus made up to amuse Himself?
Or maybe We're not all saved, but we hold the trump card as FG2 suggests - That God only offers salvation and it's up to us whether we want to be saved or not?
I'll wait for FG2's response to my previous post before saying more.
I'm not suggesting Hell is a story at all. It's a reality for whosoever rejects Jesus.
Indeed, He offers salvation, and those who reject it are in for a nasty surprise.
I'm quite sure there will be no soul in Heaven who rejects the Lord. Not one.
Hey Bro
Do you think people are correct when they say God destines certain souls to hell, as an answer to election of others? I'd say it's plain wrong. Would you agree that it makes more sense that God predetermined the salvation of some through election, to provide vessels of truth so others hava a fair chance at salvation?
A snide comment, huh.OK FreeGrace2, let's cut to the chase, although judging by your refusal to acknowledge anything outside your own view it's ging to have to be in baby steps.
Neither the elect sinners nor the non-elect sinners are forced to sin. Irrelevant, though.Do you believe that sinners are forced to sin, yes or no?
Correct, and irrelevant.I'll give you the Calvinist answer and then we can see whether you agree or disagree with us. We say that sinners aren't forced to sin. Your view is..?
I've never given a long post. I have answered long posts from Calvinists who post long ones. There's a difference. I hope that you will notice.And don't give us War and Peace again. Just a monosyllabic reply will do.
I've dodged nothing. Hopefully, you won't dodge any questions, either.I knew Behe's response was going to be in this thread somewhere. When I read the OP, I expected a response like Behe's to be the first reply. Tbhe reason I expected Behe's response is because it is a completely relevant, appropriate, and biblical response to the hypothetical argument of FreeGrace2 concerning the complaint of the man in hell, "you did not die for me." FreeGrace2's OP is the same challenge to Paul as the Pharaoh is making. The Pharaoh can say... "Why doth he still find fault?" (Romans 9:19b). FreeGrace2 can say... "Calvinism provides an excuse for the hell dwellers?" It would be interesting to see FreeGrace2 provide an answer to the Pharaoh's argument in verse 19. I bet it would not sound like Paul's answer in verses 20-23. To FreeGrace2, it will look like Paul was dodging the question of verse 19.
Why? Because it is totally TRUE. And that forms the basis for his excuse for being a hell dweller. Thanks for supporting my charge.It is most likely true, that the man in hell will complain that Christ did not die for him.
All this missed the whole point. The ONLY reason for anyone to be in hell is because, according to Calvinism, Christ didn't die for them. That is the only reason. Sin has nothing to do with anything for eternity.The man in hell will scream and complain that "it is not fair." Of course the man in Hell did not deserve for Christ to die for him and it is fair.... But then neither did we deserve Christs blood to be shed for us, and it would also be fair for all of us to go to hell. It is what we all have earned and deserved.
Yes, I would agree that false teaching IS dangerous.Therein lies the dangerous presupposition of FreeGrace2.
You've taken the idea of presupposition to outright assumption. I have no presuppositions. My charge is clear and simple. I hope that you do answer the 6 simple questions. Maybe that will reveal to the truth.His presupposition is that the man in Hell deserves a chance.
You are way off track here. In fact, Calvinism GIVES an excuse for the hell dwellers. Seems you just don't want to face that fact. Is that right?It is a very very dangerous presupposition, for it really does take away glory and sovereignty from God and gives it to man.
Not at all. Can you refute my charge or not? This sidestepping smokescreen about "chances" is amusing, at best. Let's get back to my charge. If I'm wrong about Calvinism, it should be easy to refute my charge. So far, no one has. Lots of posts, with lots of sidestepping and smokescreens, but no refutation.None of us ever deserved a chance. His presupposition assumes that there is validity to the complain of the man in hell that Christ did not die for him because the man in hell deserves a chance.
This isn't about Pharaoh. In fact, Ex 9:15,16 gives us the clear reason why Pharaoh was even still alive. God had preserved him longer in order to show him His power and glory. Which He did before took him out.Of course there is no validity to such a complaint just as the Pharaoh's complaint has not validity as Paul demonstrates. Well done Behe.
Sure. Sorry for the typo of the mind. Anway, will you answer these 6 questions?And FG2, I made a reference to JOB 38, not Proverbs 38 (which doesn't exist). JOB 38.
Please try to keep up...
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