Calvinism provides an excuse for those in hell

guuila · Aug 30, 2013

Yo FreeGrace2! Check it!

Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. The saying is trustworthy, for:

If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;
if we are faithless, he remains faithful—
for he cannot deny himself.

(2 Timothy 2:8-13 ESV)

Hammster · Aug 30, 2013

Reasking, as requested.

FreeGrace2 said:
I said this:

So, griff comes up with this bit of stuff:

Fail is right! He fails totally to grasp anything I post, apparently.

When Christ purchased eternal life, He actually has and holds it. It ain't potential. It's real. And there isn't anything about "our part" as griff insinuates. Apparently he denies what God's will is, but Jn 6:40 is clear enough for the rest of us, hopefully.

For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

I find it very interesting that Calvinists only pay lip service to faith. While they acknowledge that no one is saved apart from faith, they deny that it is a condition, even though Paul made that crystal clear in Acts 16:31.

If there's no "our part", how do we acquire this eternal life?

crimsonleaf · Aug 30, 2013

FreeGrace2 said:
They rejected the free gift.

Why does the rejection of any gift result in punishment? you haven't explained.

FreeGrace2 said:

No, they don't have eternal life, and cannot live with Him eternally. That simple.

Click to expand...

Well, they do have eternal life, just not the sort they'd want.

FreeGrace2 said:

Sure. What does that have to do with being born an unbeliever? I see no relevance here at all? Are you just asking questions as fillers, or to waste time, or what, exactly?

Click to expand...

LOL! I find it difficult to understand that you're as clueless as you make out. Perhaps it's you who's wasting time. If man is born in unbelief then how does he seek God? If you accept the doctrine of original sin as most Christians do, then you'll know that Man's disbelief is the result of Adam's sin. When I pointed that out to you elsewhere I was derided by you. Double standard, contradiction and confusion is the hallmark of your so called theology. Not forgetting the heresy of God taking unbelievers to his bosom and granting them eternal life.

FreeGrace2 said:

So what? This is believed by most Christians. What's your point?

Faith in Christ is the basis for eternal life.

Click to expand...

Stating the obvious.

FreeGrace2 said:

I'd really love to see any post of mine where I "berated Calvinists for not being readers of God's mind". That's what's rich. I invite you to. We'll see if you are up to the challenge.

Click to expand...

You repeatedly asked us to explain why God chooses the elect. We told you that we cannot know God's mind or reasons for his decision. You repeatedly pressed the point like a broken record. Now, when we ask you to do the same thing, all of a sudden you "can't know God's mind". Hypocrite.

FreeGrace2 said:

Sure. He didn't believe God's promise.

Click to expand...

Wrong.

guuila · Aug 30, 2013

Well, that was intriguing.

Metal Minister · Aug 30, 2013

griff said:
Well, that was intriguing.

Is that what we're calling it now?

FreeGrace2 · Aug 30, 2013

Jesusfreak5000 said:
I just quoted them and you didn't respond. And here you are, not backing off.

What you posted didn't say anything about limited atonement. Read them again.

Okay well your claim is just as credible as mine in and of itself

Here is what I said, resulting in your weird comment:

And none of the texts you provide SAY what you claim they MEAN.

In fact, Calvinism cannot provide verses that SAY what they believe, such as:
#1 Christ died ONLY for the elect
#2 God chooses who will believe

So why on earth do you believe what you cannot find in Scripture?

I am still waiting for comments over in soteriology on John 10, which I feel I have defended pretty well so far. You are welcome to continue debating over there.

I am doubting that debating on any thread is productive. Seems there's just a lot of closed minds. When proof is given, the eyes roll and

This kind of talk is self defeating and disingenuous. No matter what verses I post, you will disagree with my interpretation and claim they don't say what I think they say.

You misunderstand. The verses that you post DON'T SAY what you CLAIM they mean. And they DON'T MEAN what you CLAIM they mean. Anyway you slice it.

There is absolutely no single verse that I could post by itself that you would so clearly accept, and that is because you, like I, have presuppositions we bring to the table.

Absolutely false! Oh, and thanks again for the opportunity to correct the errors of the Calvinists.

I believe that Christ died for all. Heb 2:9 says exactly that! That doesn't take "presuppositions".

I'll tell you what takes a presupposition: coming to Heb 2:9 and asking the ridiculous question "everyone.....of whom"? Now, that is a presupposition. But I really doubt that you understand that.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 30, 2013

griff said:
In other words, you have no answer.

Aren't you understanding my English, griff? That's what I said. I referred you to God for the answer. No human has that answer.

[/QUOTE]Not sure why you can't just be honest about that. [/QUOTE]
I'm not sure why you are dishonest in your comments. I gave you a very clear and straight answer, and you misrepresent me as having "no answer". That is lower than intellectual dishonesty. But I'm not surprised.

Then again, Christian behavior is optional in your theology.

You really think so? Just shows how little you do think, if that's really what you think.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 30, 2013

griff said:
So a person who hates Jesus at some point in their life is more sanctified than when they supposedly believed in Jesus prior to that? Huh.

Tell you what , you troller. Stick with the OP. Can you refute it or not?

I'm done with your sidetracking smokescreens.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 30, 2013

Hammster said:
I'm sorry that you don't understand that those whose names are written in the book of life will be saved.

Say what??!! Of course they will. Since you think I don't believe that, where did you get such a ridiculous idea? Is there a post of mine that you misunderstood? I've NEVER claimed such "stuff".

It's not being saved that gets their name in the book.

Oh, I see. It is you who misreads Scripture. But I'm always very happy to correct the errors of the Calvinists.

Rev 20:15
And if anyones name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

How do you come to your conclusions? How are the "non-saved" getting their names into the book of life? Please elaborate.

Well, that was fun.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 30, 2013

Hammster said:
Not if the word for gift is the same. And unless you can show that one gift can be rejected, while another cannot, then your claim that the gift of eternal life rings hollow. But go ahead and try. We'll wait.

Look, if you want to argue that God's gift of eternal life can be returned, knock yourself out and preach that to whoever will listen.

guuila · Aug 30, 2013

FreeGrace2 said:
No human has that answer.

Quite a pompous thing to say... no human you know of has the answer. I'm sure there are other FreeGrace2ists out there who can provide a better answer.

You really think so? Just shows how little you do think, if that's really what you think.

Um yeah. You believe Christians can hate Jesus. That means progressive sanctification on this side of heaven is optional. Yay logic wins again.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 30, 2013

Hammster said:
Your claim remains unproven, just as I said. If it's so obvious, you would have no problem explaining it.

So go ahead. We'll wait.

I've shown you what the only difference is between the heaven and hell dwellers. It is that God chose the ones in heaven and Christ died ONLY for them.

But, since that obvious bit of FACT doesn't mean anything to you, then so be it.

I've proven it, and you haven't refuted it.

You have shown, however, that facts means nothing to you.

guuila · Aug 30, 2013

FreeGrace2 said:
Tell you what , you troller. Stick with the OP. Can you refute it or not?

I'm done with your sidetracking smokescreens.

Done. Ages ago. By every Calvinist in this discussion.

guuila · Aug 30, 2013

I guess this was overlooked:

Yo FreeGrace2! Check it!

Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. The saying is trustworthy, for:

If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;
if we are faithless, he remains faithful
for he cannot deny himself.

(2 Timothy 2:8-13 ESV)

FreeGrace2 · Aug 30, 2013

griff said:
Yo FreeGrace2! Check it!

Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. The saying is trustworthy, for:

If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;
if we are faithless, he remains faithful
for he cannot deny himself.

(2 Timothy 2:8-13 ESV)

OK, lemme guess: you've become an Arminian too! Well, don't that just beat all!

Are you seriously arguing that 2 Tim 2:12 is speaking of being denied our salvation? Really?

If not, then what was your point? Seems your post is pointless if you're not arguing that.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 30, 2013

Hammster said:
If there's no "our part", how do we acquire this eternal life?

We have no part. Is that clear to you? iow, there is nothing we can do to help/assist/partner with God in His saving us. Is that clear?

All we can to is receive the gift. Is that clear? If you want to claim that the simple taking of a gift is "our part", then go ahead, and knock yourself out with it. It does not matter to you. You and your play partners love to play word games. Again, knock yourself out.

guuila · Aug 30, 2013

FreeGrace2 said:
OK, lemme guess: you've become an Arminian too! Well, don't that just beat all!

Huh?

Are you seriously arguing that 2 Tim 2:12 is speaking of being denied our salvation? Really?

What is it talking about?

Metal Minister · Aug 30, 2013

FreeGrace2 said:
OK, lemme guess: you've become an Arminian too! Well, don't that just beat all!

Now, when you say "too" (also/as well) is this an admission of arminianism? Sorry, but you switch so much I'm having a hard time following!

guuila · Aug 30, 2013

Metal Minister said:
Now, when you say "too" (also/as well) is this an admission of arminianism? Sorry, but you switch so much I'm having a hard time following!

It was demonstrated that he is in fact a 4 pointer. He won't admit it because he hates labels and being associated with history, but he is.

Charis kai Dunamis · Aug 30, 2013

FreeGrace2 said:
I believe that Christ died for all. Heb 2:9 says exactly that!

Lol I love how we debated about this back and forth and you denied me this translation, and here you are using it.

Calvinism provides an excuse for those in hell

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