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Preservation of the saints refers to OSAS.
Perseverance of the saints refers to a true believer never leaving the faith.
How do you know what I cannot stand? Are you omniscient? Of course you aren't. So quit making silly statements that are obviously in error.
The Bible SAYS that Jesus tasted death for all (everyone, as most Koine Greek language experts understood Heb 2:9), and I believe it. So yes, God WAS fair to everyone by providing a Savior for everyone (the world-Jn 1:29, 4:42, 1 Tim 4:10, 1 Jn 2:2).
Why do you have a problem with God being fair? Can't sovereign God be fair to His creatures? Is that so hard to believe?
I'll clue you in. I'm asking for proof. You can call it what you want. I suppose you'll squeal "you're demanding" every time I ask a question, if that's how low you want to set the bar.There's the proof right there. Those are demands. anyone with any comprehension of the English language would call "prove it" a demand.
Can you prove that claim with some, oh, you know, evidence?Thanks for providing the proof of my claim even as you were trying to say you hadn't done so. One thing I can say about you is that you are consistently inconsistent.
Did I say anything about believing "just happens"? No, I didn't. I suggest you go back and review my post. I was clear. You missed it.Oh,. so now believing isn't a choice? It just "happens"??? Talk about moving the goal posts....
No, and no. You don't have to prove anything. But if you want anyone to believe what you claim, proof is more than helpful. And no, I'm not going to demand anything. I will ask questions, which isn't a demand, but you seem to think so.I understand it better than you evidently, and no, I don't have to prove anything. What are you going to do, demand that I prove it?
You seem to have a serious problem. You indicated that you don't like the way I understood 1 Cor 1:21, so I asked you to give me your view of it, and you go all off about demands. You have a problem. You really do.There you go again, making demands.
What post # shows that I have "bristled"? Is there one?And yet you bristle at that being pointed out and demand proof. Consistently inconsistent.
You don't have to do squat.I don't have to prove on demand from you. Pearls, etc....
I believe that He didn't actively cause Pharaoh to resist Him. He hardened Pharoah by allowing him to live longer, which allowed Pharoah to harden further.Okay. So you don't believe that God hardened Pharaoh's heart?
Preservation of the saints refers to OSAS.
Perseverance of the saints refers to a true believer never leaving the faith.
Just so you know, some of us do believe in man's ability to turn to God. However, we also believe that for 100% of the time, man, through the power of his own will, will not.Well, at least one of you admits that man has the ability. Apparently you don't accept the usual definition of total depravity of your fellow campers.
I believe that He didn't actively cause Pharaoh to resist Him. He hardened Pharoah by allowing him to live longer, which allowed Pharoah to harden further.
Did you notice that in the first 5 plagues, the Bible says that Pharoah hardened his own heart? That's a clue.
But in your view, if someone leaves the faith, he's still going to end up in heaven anyways right?
Why are they saved even if they denounce Christ and no longer have trust in Him alone for salvation? What makes them any different than the person who's been an unbeliever his entire life?
Thanks for the opportunity to clear this up. God's choice of who to save is found in 1 Cor 1:21. He chooses to save believers. That's what being "well pleased" means. We tend to choose what pleases us.It's inconsistent to deny the Calvinist's idea of God sovereignly choosing who will be saved and thus on the one hand you affirm some kind of libertarian free will, yet on the other hand deny it when it comes to staying saved.
I agree. But those who stop believing don't lose their salvation. Because I can't find any Scripture that says so.If a person used their free will to believe, they can use their free will to stop believing, and God doesn't save people who hate Jesus.
OSAS is taught clearly in John 10:28-29, and Rom 8:35-38.Where?
I deny Arminianism, for it's view on conditional security. And maybe your definition of "libertarian" free will.You and I are on the same side... we both deny Calvanism.
I KNOW that when God saves anyone, they stay saved, regardless of "things present, or things future". And that no one is bigger than God who can "pluck themselves out of God's hand".So you think God is going to save people who hate Jesus?
Gee, griff, why would that surprise you? In your view, God forces people to be regenerated in order to force them to believe, right?So in OSAS, God forces people to be saved who don't want to be anymore?
Gee, griff, why would that surprise you? In your view, God forces people to be regenerated in order to force them to believe, right?
What a silly question. LOL
If that charge were true, there would be some evidence. Do you have any that you can share with the thread?Um, the fact that you kick against sovereign grace every single day of your life maybe?
I thought you would know. To propitiate means to "satisfy". Christ's death satisfied the justice of God for the sins of the whole world.What does propitiation mean?
You are confused, but I know why.Being fair would be to send you, me, and everyone else to hell. No injustice done. But since you believe Christ atoned for 100% of humanity, it is an injustice to Christ that anyone would go to hell.
When God saves a man, He regenerates his dead human spirit,
That would be the Bible's view.But in your view, if someone leaves the faith, he's still going to end up in heaven anyways right?
Because God saved them, and promised them eternal life. Otherwise, God is a liar if He removes eternal life from those He has promised it to.Why are they saved even if they denounce Christ and no longer have trust in Him alone for salvation?
They are saved, children of God, though rebellious. Other than that, nothing.What makes them any different than the person who's been an unbeliever his entire life?
You are misusing the word "power". There is no power in wlll.Just so you know, some of us do believe in man's ability to turn to God. However, we also believe that for 100% of the time, man, through the power of his own will, will not.
What teaching from Scripture says that no one from the human race has the will to believe?So man has the ability, but not the will. As I say, this isn't a universally held view within Calvinism or those who call themselves Calvinists. Some believe that this fine distinction isn't worth noting, and for me it's borderline.
No, I've been explicit about my understanding of free will. And I never said "free will is free will". Go ahead and research if you so desire.It all hinges on one's understanding of free will, whether libertarian or bound; something I remember you know nothing about, and weren't prepared to look up. "Free will is free will" was, I think, the extent of your knowledge.
If that charge were true, there would be some evidence. Do you have any that you can share with the thread?
I thought you would know.
To propitiate means to "satisfy". Christ's death satisfied the justice of God for the sins of the whole world.
God's justice was satisfied by the cross work of Christ for everyone, which purchased eternal life for everyone.
And all who freely receive the gift are saved. No one has any excuse for not receiving the gift.
In your theology, those in hell have an excuse; God didn't purchase any gift for them. If you disagree, refute that please.
FG2's arguments seem inconsistent. I don't understand why he borrows from Calvinism on his OSAS thing.
LOL, I have great respect for you saying that. My hat is off to you. That is a good example to even me. I should be speaking out when I see Reformed people behaving poorly on threads. We have our own problems too. I ain't perfect either. I am glad your here. You might make a good mod in an Arminian forum.Also, I've had about enough of his childish, condescending attitude. Not a good way to represent our side.
What a ridiculous idea. Where did you get that from? I never said it, I never insinuated it. You make "conclusions" that are beyond reason.So you believe heaven will be filled with people who hate God. Interesting.
Quickens the human spirit, so that the believer can worship God. Jn 4:24What does regeneration do?
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