Calvinism or Arminianism?

Brother Chris said:

Spyder, these people in this verse are condemned because they are not Christians. They are not saved. How do we know? The last part of the last verse is the key: you evildoers or you who practice lawlessness. Read 1 John 3:

verse 4: Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

verse 9: No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

These people in Matthew 7:21-23 were never saved or born again. It's not because they didn't do enough good works or obey the bible enough, they were never saved by the grace of God. They continued to rely on religion and external works which does nothing to cure someone's sin problem. When Jesus said, "you must be born again" that's what He meant. Are you born again Spyder? Did you repent of your sins and believe and trust and in God's only Son to forgive you, save you and change you?

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Chris, I want to comment on this because I've lived a saved life since age six. I've experienced lost years of things I am ashamed of. Like fornication, lasciviousness and living a prodigal backslider's life. I'm 47 now and I've recognized that when I try to stop sinning like lusting, I do it more. The more I try and stop sinning the more sinning I commit -wth? We are no longer slaves to sin so how do we stop with the carnality? Answer - by becoming slaves to righteousness and that is only possible because God has given each believer at least one spiritual gift. We are to find out what gift we have and use it. It may be evangelism or knowledge which can be used on forums like this. Or teaching and pastoring gifts used at church. Whatever it is, when it becomes important enough for us to know - spider, we can begin a victorious walk in Him. Don't think that you can stop sinning on your own brother spider. What you and I can do is humble ourselves and serve each other with our gifts and learn to become servants of the most high God. Christ is calling you closer to him.
Thanks Chris

SpyderByte said:

First I wanna say thanks to all of you for helpin me out. I really have a hard time with this stuff. Second, I've fallen on my knees and begged God to save me more times than I can count. I don't know if that's right or not, but I ask so much He's prolly sick a hearin it by now. I gotta ask though, what does "practicing sin" mean? I know I screw up all the time! I ask God to help me not to (I got a real problem with cussin and my temper) but I just keep messin up, and I know that's a sin, so why can't I stop? I don't wanna sin any more, I wanna be right and quit makin God mad at me!

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Practicing sin means to habitually and deliberately sin, it describes what an unbeliever does. Before I was saved and God cleaned me up, I was watching porn, cursing, hating, lusting, coveting, etc. On the day Jesus saved me, all of that stopped. Did I become sinless and perfect? No. But God broke that pattern and power of sin. I do not do those things habitually or deliberately anymore, some of them I don't do at all, ever. But I still get tempted in some areas, it's part of being entrapped in a human body that is fallen. But my sin pattern is not the same anymore. You said, "I don't wanna sin anymore," and I can tell you, unsaved people do not desire that.

Brother Chris said:

Practicing sin means to habitually and deliberately sin, it describes what an unbeliever does. Before I was saved and God cleaned me up, I was watching porn, cursing, hating, lusting, coveting, etc. On the day Jesus saved me, all of that stopped. Did I become sinless and perfect? No. But God broke that pattern and power of sin. I do not do those things habitually or deliberately anymore, some of them I don't do at all, ever. But I still get tempted in some areas, it's part of being entrapped in a human body that is fallen. But my sin pattern is not the same anymore. You said, "I don't wanna sin anymore," and I can tell you, unsaved people do not desire that.

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Still though, I'd say true Christians can deliberately sin. David's adultery was definitely premeditated. When we sin, we do it willfully.

griff said:

Still though, I'd say true Christians can deliberately sin. David's adultery was definitely premeditated. When we sin, we do it willfully.

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I meant to say that it is sin done without caring. I can just look at my past life as an unsaved person. When I sinned, I didn't care. I was only concerned about the temporal consequences of my sin, not the eternal. For example, when I was physically involved with a woman that I was dating, I was only concerned about not getting her pregnant. I wasn't concerned about this offending God, this being sin that can condemn me, not being married to her, etc. I simply just didn't care. I wanted my sin and that's it. That's how unbelievers sin. Scripture proves that a born again Christian will not sin that way. It doesn't mean they won't commit sexual sins, but they will not stay in that and it will not be an unbroken pattern in their lives. God will discipline them and clean them up.

Brother Chris said:

I meant to say that it is sin done without caring. I can just look at my past life as an unsaved person. When I sinned, I didn't care. I was only concerned about the temporal consequences of my sin, not the eternal. For example, when I was physically involved with a woman that I was dating, I was only concerned about not getting her pregnant. I wasn't concerned about this offending God, this being sin that can condemn me, not being married to her, etc. I simply just didn't care. I wanted my sin and that's it. That's how unbelievers sin. Scripture proves that a born again Christian will not sin that way. It doesn't mean they won't commit sexual sins, but they will not stay in that and it will not be an unbroken pattern in their lives. God will discipline them and clean them up.

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Amen!

SpyderByte said:

I have a question for you guys (cause you all seem a whole lot smarter than me) and my brother's answered for me, but cmon, family ain't always right, and sometimes tells ya whatcha wanna hear. Is it possible for somebody to really wanna be saved, to really wanna have a different life, and be right with God, and have God say no? Take me for example, I really wanna be right with God, I really wanna know I'm saved, but I don't. It's got me scared, I ain't gonna lie. So did God tell me no?

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When Jesus passed the crippled man in John 5, he asked a very penetrating question: "Do you want to be healed?" Let's look at that again. "Do you want to be healed?"

He did not tell the man "no." His desire for healing was real.

When the Pharisees and Saduccees came to him, hardened in their sins, blaspheming him, he called them broods of vipers, and sons of the Devil. They had no desire to be healed. Or to see the truth. They wanted only to satisfy their pride.

I've read that many of the early church fathers saw three levels of "wanting" when it came to God. They compared this to human childhood. First came "avoiding punishment." This would be the lowest, least rational level. Then came "seeking reward." This would be a little bit higher. Last came "Loving God." In other words, obeying and seeking God purely because it is all the heart wants to do. And in doing this one thing, this pure thing, all else is accomplished too. Punishment is avoided, and reward is given, because God himself is the reward.

So you said you want to be saved. Saved from what? Saved for what purpose?

But the answer to your question, whether it's possible for one to want to be saved, and God to shut him out, is "no." There is no desire for salvation apart from God's grace. The fact that you want to be saved, and believe that God can save you, means there is already faith...at least, faith that God can do what he promises to do. This reminds me of the Centurion who visited Jesus in the gospels, seeking healing for his servant. He believed that Jesus was able to heal. And it was granted to him "that very hour."

And consider Mark 9, when the father of a sick child said "Lord, I believe! Help my unbelief!"

God does not turn away those who seek him. And he helps the weak to get strong.

I have more I can discuss with you, if you wish to hear it. I'm no expert but I'm actually encouraged that you feel some dread about approaching God. Far too many in our day treat God like a tame pet who just wants us to be happy. To quote C.S. Lewis' Narnia books, where Aslan the Lion is an allegory for Christ, "Aslan is not a tame lion."

(I simply warn you that my answers will probably depart from some of what's already been written. I don't fit the mold most of the time )

griff said:

Still though, I'd say true Christians can deliberately sin. David's adultery was definitely premeditated. When we sin, we do it willfully.

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All sin is willful.

elman said:

All sin is willful.

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I agree with you Elman! Hallelujah! Hell must have frozen over! Oh wait.

griff said:

I agree with you Elman! Hallelujah! Hell must have frozen over! Oh wait.

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That is one.

elman said:

That is one.

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Huh?

SpyderByte said:

I have a question for you guys (cause you all seem a whole lot smarter than me) and my brother's answered for me, but cmon, family ain't always right, and sometimes tells ya whatcha wanna hear. Is it possible for somebody to really wanna be saved, to really wanna have a different life, and be right with God, and have God say no? Take me for example, I really wanna be right with God, I really wanna know I'm saved, but I don't. It's got me scared, I ain't gonna lie. So did God tell me no?

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They asked of Jesus , what work must we do to be doing God's work?

26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

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It certainly is not complex, Jesus says repent and believe in the gospel.

14 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom[e] of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

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Romans 10

6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’”[c] (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim:

9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”
12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

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So then call on the LORD, on the name of Jesus, and He will save you from your sins. He will make you a new creation in Christ Jesus, all things will become new. This is of God and that is what He does, for you shall call his name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.

Peter in acts pleaded with the people.
"Save yourself from this corrupt generation!"

Acts 2

34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
35 until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”’[f]
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”

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This has been very interesting and informative. I am having a problem with this because I cannot see God as One Who deliberately creates people predestined to be damned to the fires of Hell, for all eternity, and there's nothing they can do about it. What does 2 Peter 3:9 mean? "...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

I believe that I am saved, totally by the love, grace, mercy, and forgiveness of God, through the Blood of the Lamb, by the power of the Holy Spirit. I believe I said yes to God, but even the desire and the ability to say, "YES!, came from God. (Ephesians 2:8)

God's ways and thoughts are higher than ours - Isaiah 55:8-9. I trust God; I'm willing to trust Him, even though I don't understand Him or His ways. I know God knows what He's doing.

My heart is broken for the lost! Why does there have to be a Hell, and why do people have to go there?

griff said:

I agree with you Elman! Hallelujah! Hell must have frozen over! Oh wait.

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Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. He was bound to slip up and say something agreeable eventually.

Still lovin' ya Elman.

JoeNah said:

This has been very interesting and informative. I am having a problem with this because I cannot see God as One Who deliberately creates people predestined to be damned to the fires of Hell, for all eternity, and there's nothing they can do about it. What does 2 Peter 3:9 mean? "...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

I believe that I am saved, totally by the love, grace, mercy, and forgiveness of God, through the Blood of the Lamb, by the power of the Holy Spirit. I believe I said yes to God, but even the desire and the ability to say, "YES!, came from God. (Ephesians 2:8)

God's ways and thoughts are higher than ours - Isaiah 55:8-9. I trust God; I'm willing to trust Him, even though I don't understand Him or His ways. I know God knows what He's doing.

My heart is broken for the lost! Why does there have to be a Hell, and why do people have to go there?

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Yes I feel like this too. It feels sad, but rejoice that your names are written in Heaven!

Apostle Paul has expressed the same as you have just said, even Jesus wept over Jerusalem. Some things are what they are.

Romans 10
Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

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and this. Paul even wishing he was accursed from Christ for the sake of Israel.
Paul goes on saying a very significant teaching.

8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

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For God says, Sarah WILL have a son. The child of the promise is the heir, not the child of the flesh. This is very significant and shows it is about HE who calls, not he who runs, It is about God choosing and calling us, and this is not done by our flesh, this is done by His Spirit. He comes, grabs hold of us, He pursues us and saves us. Jesus comes to seek and save what was lost. Jesus leaves the 99 and goes after the one who wandered away and was lost. And when He finds it brings it back to the fold. The verse says HE finds the one who was lost. This is absolute, Jesus is perfect. Jesus is talking about His sheep.

Romans 9
I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen[a] according to the flesh,

4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Purpose

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”[c]

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Calvinism gives God much more credit than the arminians do. If I had a choice (which I don't anyway) I would chose men that gives God the power and credit for being who He Is and I would thank Him for choosing me which I have nothing to do with and wouldn't be possible for me to boast about saving myself. Calvinism is much, much, much, more closer to explaining how it is God that does the choosing according to His Own Pleasure and not man's. Arminians give themselves some credit even if it is a little bit. Calvinism explains that it would be impossble to give yourself a little bit of credit as cooperation means something so they can boast about. Arminians boast and Calvinism don't.

BIG difference !

Don't worry, There are Particular Baptists among general baptists.

JoeNah said:

This has been very interesting and informative. I am having a problem with this because I cannot see God as One Who deliberately creates people predestined to be damned to the fires of Hell, for all eternity,

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This is a common concern, but if you think about it, nobody who affirms that God is omniscient (that He knows all things) can really escape this alleged dilemma.

If God knows all things and knows the future, that means he knew, before he created the human race, that many people would reject the gospel and end up in hell. Yet knowing this, God still decided to create those people anyway. He could have chosen to not create people he foreknew would never believe. He could have simply only created people he foreknew would willingly believe. But he didn't. He created them, thus effectively sealing their fate. In other words He created people that he positively knew would end up in hell, if he created them.

and there's nothing they can do about it.

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This shows a misunderstanding of the issues. Those hellbound sinners do not want to do anything about it. It's not as if they want to be saved ,but can't be. They don't want to be saved in the first place. They don't want to give up their sins and they don't want reconciliation with God and they don't want to submit to Jesus.

The way you worded your argument implies that there could be people who want to be saved, but since they aren't predestined, "They can't do anything about it". The reality is, there is no such person. Your scenario is an impossibility.

What does 2 Peter 3:9 mean? "...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

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If you read the verse in context you might come away with a different, more full understanding of the verse. Don't pluck it from context and read it in a vacuum. Look at all the things you are missing out on by doing so...

The pronoun "you" in this verse (God is patient towards YOU, not willing that any perish..) is a pronoun used in place of a specific group of people.
That group of people Peter defines as "The beloved to whom I'm writing my second letter to" (2 Peter 3:1), and "God's elect" (1st Peter 1:1-2).
The "promise" in 2 Peter 3:9 is not salvation, but "the promise of Christ's coming" that Peter is discussing in the chapter. He says that scoffers will come saying "Where is the promise of His coming?"
But Peter says, the reason God is delaying Christ's return is because "God is not slow to fulfill his promise..but is patient towards YOU, not wanting any to perish..". In other words, God is delaying Christ's return because there are still people that God plans to bring to repentance. Not a single one of Christ's sheep will be lost. That is why Christ has not yet returned - he's still saving His elect!

My heart is broken for the lost! Why does there have to be a Hell, and why do people have to go there?

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God takes His glory seriously.

Metal Minister said:

I've seen this debate back and forth across this forum. It boils down to one question. Are we chosen to be saved, or do we choose ourselves to be saved? Did I come to Jesus Christ because I was irresistibly drawn by God or did I come to Christ because my heart said "I want to come to Christ"? The answer is yes.

Both are undeniably taught in scripture. This isn't to say Calvinism is wrong, or Armenianism is wrong, but that the answer lies in the middle ground, a place that God knows. I myself believe that since God is omniscient, he knows the beginning from the end, He knew who would come to Him from the foundation of the world. He knew us and and how our lives would unfold, and He is not waiting for us to make the decision, but already knows the outcome of that decision. He is at the end of time, just as He is at the beginning of time, at the same time. So no, I'm not a hyper-calvinist, and no I'm not a hyper-armenian, but I fall in the middle ground, and I trust in God to sort out the details.....

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The more one digs into Church history and reads what not only Jesus taught to His disciples but also what they wrote, and what their disciples (The Church Fathers) wrote in regards to our salvation by faith and FREE WILL, Rom 10:9-10. It is clear that Arminianism is the closest position to first century Christianity.

Salvation according to Rom 10:9-10 is something man can either receive or reject by his own will. Also read Mark 16:16.

“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
Romans 4:5

The key is: "his faith is counted for righteousness". The person has to make the choice to believe or not believe.

Any doctrine that states that salvation is only for a few elect and denies that Jesus died for the sins of the world is contradictory to Scripture, to say the least, without even mentioning the fact that God is no respecter of persons. After a man or woman hears the Gospel a decision is to be made: believe in the Gospel or reject it, there is NO middle ground.

Is God sovereign? Of course He is. That is why HE established that people should be saved by believing in His Son Jesus as the atonement for sin. Acts 16:31 "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."


1. Free Will
Man can do nothing to save himself, but has the free will to accept God’s free gift of salvation.
2. Conditional Election
The body of Christ is predestined for salvation; no other religion can offer salvation. An individual is saved on the condition that he accepts Jesus as Messiah. Salvation is based on God’s foreknowledge of who would freely accept the gift and become a member of the body of Christ.
3. Universal Atonement
Christ’s death is universal in that it paid for the sins of every single person, not that all people will be saved. Each person must exercise his free will and accept the gift.
4. Obstructable Grace
God wants all men to be saved and the Holy Spirit will draw or woo people; but each person can resist the call and damn himself.
5. Falling from Grace
Just as it is possible to resist God’s call of grace and refuse to be saved in the first place, it is also possible to become a true Christian and then walk away from your salvation and be damned.