Calvinism or Arminianism?

griff said:

You don't even know if you'll make it to heaven. I don't see any reason to have confidence in anything you say. You need to repent and believe the Gospel.

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Elman, have you repented and believed the Gospel? Or are you still in doubt of where you stand or where you will spend eternity?

I have a question for you guys (cause you all seem a whole lot smarter than me) and my brother's answered for me, but cmon, family ain't always right, and sometimes tells ya whatcha wanna hear. Is it possible for somebody to really wanna be saved, to really wanna have a different life, and be right with God, and have God say no? Take me for example, I really wanna be right with God, I really wanna know I'm saved, but I don't. It's got me scared, I ain't gonna lie. So did God tell me no?

SpyderByte said:

I have a question for you guys (cause you all seem a whole lot smarter than me) and my brother's answered for me, but cmon, family ain't always right, and sometimes tells ya whatcha wanna hear. Is it possible for somebody to really wanna be saved, to really wanna have a different life, and be right with God, and have God say no? Take me for example, I really wanna be right with God, I really wanna know I'm saved, but I don't. It's got me scared, I ain't gonna lie. So did God tell me no?

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Why are you not having a different life if you want that?

SpyderByte said:

I have a question for you guys (cause you all seem a whole lot smarter than me) and my brother's answered for me, but cmon, family ain't always right, and sometimes tells ya whatcha wanna hear. Is it possible for somebody to really wanna be saved, to really wanna have a different life, and be right with God, and have God say no? Take me for example, I really wanna be right with God, I really wanna know I'm saved, but I don't. It's got me scared, I ain't gonna lie. So did God tell me no?

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incorrect. When God chooses a person before he created the world, he doesn't stop there. In time, during that person's life, he also draws that person to Jesus. All the chosen eventually come to faith in Jesus.

In other words, whether you believe in predestination or not, the following is true: all who believe in Jesus will be saved.

It is impossible to come to faith in Jesus and yet not be one of God's chosen. This is a truth in both Calvinism and non-Calvinism.

SpyderByte said:

I have a question for you guys (cause you all seem a whole lot smarter than me) and my brother's answered for me, but cmon, family ain't always right, and sometimes tells ya whatcha wanna hear. Is it possible for somebody to really wanna be saved, to really wanna have a different life, and be right with God, and have God say no? Take me for example, I really wanna be right with God, I really wanna know I'm saved, but I don't. It's got me scared, I ain't gonna lie. So did God tell me no?

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Let me ask you, was there ever a point in your life where you didn't care about God, or Christianity, you did your own thing, whatever...you didn't believe in this stuff, you were not concerned about spiritual things?

Brother Chris said:

Let me ask you, was there ever a point in your life where you didn't care about God, or Christianity, you did your own thing, whatever...you didn't believe in this stuff, you were not concerned about spiritual things?

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Well yeah, but I don't wanna go to hell. That scares the crap outta me! I've been thinkin a lot lately I need to get baptized, and take comunion. I learned these are supposed to be you showing.g obedience to God, and that's what I want to be. I was baptized as a baby, but I was told that doesn't really mean nothin cause I didn't even know what was goin on.

SpyderByte said:

I have a question for you guys (cause you all seem a whole lot smarter than me) and my brother's answered for me, but cmon, family ain't always right, and sometimes tells ya whatcha wanna hear. Is it possible for somebody to really wanna be saved, to really wanna have a different life, and be right with God, and have God say no? Take me for example, I really wanna be right with God, I really wanna know I'm saved, but I don't. It's got me scared, I ain't gonna lie. So did God tell me no?

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Did you know that salvation is absolutely free? and that we do not have to do anything to get saved? Well what do the Scriptures teach? Lets see.

Well, John 3:16 is the most famous verse ever quoted in the world but I want you to see and hear what Jesus said just two verses earlier in verse 14 Jesus is pointing to a historical event to make a point about God's love.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; (John 3:14 ASV)

The event happened when God led the Jews out from Egypt. As was their habit the people grumbled and sinned while out in the wilderness on their way to the promised land. God responds by judging and disciplining them and on this occasion God sent serpents into their midst:

And Jehovah sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. (Numbers 21:6 ASV)

The people of Israel then do their normal thing - they ask Moses to pray for them for forgiveness from The Lord. Moses prays and God forgives them:

And the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, because we have spoken against Jehovah, and against thee; pray unto Jehovah, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. (Numbers 21:7 ASV)

God forgives the people but on one condition: Moses is to hold the serpent up for the congregation to gaze upon.

Then the Lord said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live." (Numbers 21:8 NASB)

It was not how guilty they felt or how long they stared at it in the heat of the desert sun, it was simply the look of faith.

And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived. (Numbers 21:9 NASB)

If they were hard hearted and stiff necked they died in their sins.

Let's continue on now with Jesus's words:

so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:15, 16 NASB)

God has lifted up our object of faith, Jesus the Messiah on a cross. We are to humble ourselves, coming to the realization that personal righteousness and holiness is outside of our capabilities, and look to our God and Father who said:

so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. (John 3:15, 17 NASB)

If we refuse to believe that salvation is by grace alone thru faith alone in Messiah alone plus nothing then we are not really believing on Him that was sent and are under the following judgement:

so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:15, 18 NASB)

If you have followed the teachings of any other variation from what the bible clearly states concerning the content of faith for salvation then you have accepted the accusation of other religions teaching concerning not only these simple words of Christ but all of the other passages of scripture concerning God's free offer of imputed righteousness.

Calvinist: The reason I believe is because of God's irresistible grace
Arminian: The reason I believe is because of God's prevenient grace

I take no credit for my salvation it is from God.

americanvet said:

Calvinist: The reason I believe is because of God's irresistible grace
Arminian: The reason I believe is because of God's prevenient grace

I take no credit for my salvation it is from God.

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Prevenient grace can't be the reason for an Arminian's salvation. Prevenient grace is insufficient to save. It woos the sinner, but nothing more. The sinner is the final say on the matter in that system. Arminians love to come alongside the Calvinists and say "Oh yes by grace alone I'm saved!!" but the truth is, in their system grace is insufficient to save. It's grace + the sinner's contribution of self-wrought faith that gets it done; thus the name synergism. Salvation is a tag team effort between God and the sinner. God does 99% and the sinner does the rest.

In Biblical Christianity, salvation is 100% of the Lord from start to finish. Faith is a gift from God, not left up to the sinner to bring to the table. Thus Calvinists can consistently say "I'm saved by grace alone."

This literally keeps me up at night!

21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

The idea that Jesus might say "away from me" makes me feel like I wanna throw up.....

SpyderByte said:

This literally keeps me up at night!

21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

The idea that Jesus might say "away from me" makes me feel like I wanna throw up.....

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I was beat to death with these verses at my last church so I know what you're saying. However, I believe the context is around false prophets, i.e., people who stand in pulpits and take a leadership/teaching position in the church. I'm not sure if that's totally right, but it's clear the ones who were turned away weren't trusting in Jesus. They were trusting in their works. Some good Scripture to have when you feel that way:

Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” (Matthew 11:28-30 ESV)

Jesus' burden is light. It's not one that makes you feel like you have to be doing all kinds of work all the time in order to keep or prove your salvation.

SpyderByte said:

This literally keeps me up at night!

21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

The idea that Jesus might say "away from me" makes me feel like I wanna throw up.....

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The many here are those who do not accept salvation by grace alone thru faith alone in Christ alone plus nothing. The interesting point of that passage is not that these people were never saved to begin with but in the extent of their deception which included the working of miracles. Super natural events like miracles can be counterfeited by satan as in this case too.
If you really want a clearer study on eternal security I'd be happy to email you a comprehensive 25-30 page manuscript by dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum. He provides scriptural evidence concerning that passage as well as every other difficult passage that on the surface can seem contradictory to grace salvation. If you've never been trained in biblical interpretation methods there's only so far one can go in understand the scriptures. This passage is one example of that.

Amen Griff!

SpyderByte said:

This literally keeps me up at night!

21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

The idea that Jesus might say "away from me" makes me feel like I wanna throw up.....

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Spyder, these people in this verse are condemned because they are not Christians. They are not saved. How do we know? The last part of the last verse is the key: you evildoers or you who practice lawlessness. Read 1 John 3:

verse 4: Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

verse 9: No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

These people in Matthew 7:21-23 were never saved or born again. It's not because they didn't do enough good works or obey the bible enough, they were never saved by the grace of God. They continued to rely on religion and external works which does nothing to cure someone's sin problem. When Jesus said, "you must be born again" that's what He meant. Are you born again Spyder? Did you repent of your sins and believe and trust in God's only Son to forgive you, save you and change you?

Brother Chris said:

Spyder, these people in this verse are condemned because they are not Christians. They are not saved. How do we know? The last part of the last verse is the key: you evildoers or you who practice lawlessness. Read 1 John 3:

verse 4: Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

verse 9: No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

These people in Matthew 7:21-23 were never saved or born again. It's not because they didn't do enough good works or obey the bible enough, they were never saved by the grace of God. They continued to rely on religion and external works which does nothing to cure someone's sin problem. When Jesus said, "you must be born again" that's what He meant. Are you born again Spyder? Did you repent of your sins and believe and trust and in God's only Son to forgive you, save you and change you?

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First I wanna say thanks to all of you for helpin me out. I really have a hard time with this stuff. Second, I've fallen on my knees and begged God to save me more times than I can count. I don't know if that's right or not, but I ask so much He's prolly sick a hearin it by now. I gotta ask though, what does "practicing sin" mean? I know I screw up all the time! I ask God to help me not to (I got a real problem with cussin and my temper) but I just keep messin up, and I know that's a sin, so why can't I stop? I don't wanna sin any more, I wanna be right and quit makin God mad at me!

SpyderByte said:

Well yeah, but I don't wanna go to hell. That scares the crap outta me! I've been thinkin a lot lately I need to get baptized, and take comunion. I learned these are supposed to be you showing.g obedience to God, and that's what I want to be. I was baptized as a baby, but I was told that doesn't really mean nothin cause I didn't even know what was goin on.

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Salvation is not obtained by "doing stuff". There's no list of things to "check off" in order to be saved. There is nothing you can do to be saved. Instead, someone did everything necessary for salvation in our place. His name is Jesus.

Only by trusting that what he did, he did for you, are we saved.

americanvet said:

Calvinist: The reason I believe is because of God's irresistible grace
Arminian: The reason I believe is because of God's prevenient grace

I take no credit for my salvation it is from God.

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As Griff said, prevenient grace can't be credited for your belief, because the unbeliever who will perish into hell was given the same prevenient grace. Thus, what made the difference between you and the unbeliever was not grace, but yourself.

Shoot. I'm sorry y'all, I didn't mean to mess up your thread! Looks like you gotta deep discussion goin. I'll take off!

SpyderByte said:

First I wanna say thanks to all of you for helpin me out. I really have a hard time with this stuff. Second, I've fallen on my knees and begged God to save me more times than I can count. I don't know if that's right or not, but I ask so much He's prolly sick a hearin it by now. I gotta ask though, what does "practicing sin" mean? I know I screw up all the time! I ask God to help me not to (I got a real problem with cussin and my temper) but I just keep messin up, and I know that's a sin, so why can't I stop? I don't wanna sin any more, I wanna be right and quit makin God mad at me!

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The Biblical truth is that the only reason you'd fall to your knees and beg forgiveness in the first place is because of God's grace leading you to do so

By fallen nature, we aren't willing to do any such thing. So trust in Christ and approach God's throne boldly, covered in his blood. The reason you are saved is because it was His idea to save you in the first place.

SpyderByte said:

First I wanna say thanks to all of you for helpin me out. I really have a hard time with this stuff. Second, I've fallen on my knees and begged God to save me more times than I can count. I don't know if that's right or not, but I ask so much He's prolly sick a hearin it by now. I gotta ask though, what does "practicing sin" mean? I know I screw up all the time! I ask God to help me not to (I got a real problem with cussin and my temper) but I just keep messin up, and I know that's a sin, so why can't I stop? I don't wanna sin any more, I wanna be right and quit makin God mad at me!

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Sounds like Paul in Romans 7. We still have indwelling sin, and we are prone to certain sins that others may not struggle with. For example, I don't struggle with cussing as much as I struggle with other sins that you may not struggle with. I think "practicing sin" means sinning as a pattern of life with no repentance. Asking God over and over to save you is simply unbelief. Take God's promises and believe them.

"...if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9 ESV)

It's as simple as that.