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Calvinism and Relativism

RC1970

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I was addressing the issue of whether it is just for God to allow for ought-ness without allowing for ability (can).

So, I think we agree everyone ought.

However, you seem to disagree with the following:

"vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" = can't
"vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory" = can
 
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jimmyjimmy

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"vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" = can't
"vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory" = can

It's always a problem of the will, not the ability. The ability follows the will. They cannot because they will not.

"vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" = cannot because they Will not. They don't will it

"vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory" = Will. Because they now have different desires.
 
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zippy2006

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I was addressing the issue of whether it is just for God to allow for ought-ness without allowing for ability (can).

Yes, you initially replied to a post where I argued that "ought" implies "can" and that this truth is contrary to Calvinism.

So, I think we agree everyone ought.

Everyone ought what?

However, you seem to disagree with the following:

"vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" = can't

Can't what?

If you think that the damned can't not-sin, then I disagree. I asked what you see in Romans 9 that determines such an issue. Where in Romans 9 does it say that the damned can't not-sin, that they have no free will?

"vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory" = can

Can what?
 
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RC1970

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Sorry Zippy, not going to play the game of regress arguments. You know perfectly well what is meant by "ought" and "can".

"The Lord has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble." ~ Proverbs 16:4
 
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zippy2006

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Sorry Zippy, not going to play the game of regress arguments. You know perfectly well what is meant by "ought" and "can".

No I don't, and underlying this is the fact that your sentences are not even grammatically correct. "So, I think we agree everyone ought," is not even a complete sentence.

If you think that some part of Scripture denies the principle that "ought" implies "can" then you are welcome to quote the scripture and explain why it denies the principle. If you are not able to provide any explanation, then you obviously provide no reason to believe that Scripture contradicts such a principle.
 
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RisenInJesus

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What if...the message concerns, not personal salvation, but God's Sovereign dealings with nations in accomplishing His purposes through history?

When reading this passage in context, along with related passages it is clear that the spiritual salvation of individuals, especially a predestined, unconditional election, is not the subject of Romans 9. While this passage shows that God, as the Potter, has the right to do as He pleases, there is nothing in the passage which relates to or says that God determines the eternal destiny of individuals to heaven or hell. Vindication of God's judgment regarding the nation of Israel is the primary point.

Also, Paul is referring to the Potter and the clay in the Old Testament in Jeremiah 18, where God tells Jeremiah to watch and learn from the potter at the wheel. There we see that when the clay becomes “marred” in God’s hand, He reserves the right to start over so that He can still bring glory to Himself despite the rebellion of the clay. In other words, He has every right to be glorified by our lives, and will be glorified by our lives, whether by our obedience or by our rebellion. God also declares that if a nation or kingdom (the clay) repents, then He also will repent of the evil He is planning to bring on that nation or kingdom. God clearly teaches through Jeremiah 18 that the “clay” has a choice to repent.
As does (2 Tim. 2:20-21)... But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.
 
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Si_monfaith

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God created man without the knowledge of good and evil (kge). So man was naked but under law or kge nakedness is a violation. So man was not created to be a moral being.

Without this kge, man cannot accuse God of injustice.

Rom 9: 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

A choice need not be essentially made on the grounds of kge. It could be made based on one's desire.
 
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