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The Smallest Servant of God
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Agreed! Dear Honorable man of GodI agree with you that things change. But respectfully I would suggest that what you are referring to is the maturation process, not sanctification itself. Here is a passage that speaks directly to maturation...
12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. (Heb 5:12–14)
WOW! what a way of observation. I have no doubt on your maturity in the understanding of the word of God. May God bless you more and more!I know that people use these verses to point to sanctification being progressive. But I would point out that 1) "sanctification" is not mentioned in these verses, and 2) the use of the present tense does not indicate a process. Let's take a look at a few other verses that use present passive indicative verbs (like the ones you have cited) to see if the idea of a process is indicated...
- Mark 12:25 - For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
- Mark 12:27 - He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.
- Acts 28:1 - Now when they had escaped, they then found out that the island was called Malta.
- Rom 1:17 - For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
- 2 Cor 3:16 - Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
Yes! no doubt! you are right man of GodWhy do you use words like "feels slow", "even invisible", "you'll likely see", and "emotional optimism". It seems as if you are jumping to conclusions about me. Just so you know that I know the realities of which I speak, I will share the following two paragraphs I wrote and published in 2012 (from New Life in Christ Jesus, Everything We Need for Life and Godliness)...
But if we choose to walk with God every day in the newness of life, some things will change. Our trust in God will increase (2 Cor. 10:15). Our knowledge of God will grow (Col. 1:10). Our discernment of good and evil will sharpen (Heb. 5:14). Our spirits will grow stronger (Eph. 3:16). Our love for one another will abound (1 Thess. 3:12). The fruits of our righteousness will multiply (2 Cor. 9:10). Our brethren with whom we interact will be strengthened (Acts 18:23). And our numbers will increase (Acts 16:5).These things are not evidence of God cleaning us up over time or of us becoming more and more like Jesus over time. They are the fruits of walking in the Spirit. Their existence proves that God has given us new lives in Christ Jesus, that we possess everything we need for life and godliness, and that fruitful Christian lives happen only when we trust God and walk with Him—as He leads us, guides us, and directs us from the depths of our own hearts (Gal. 5:16–26).
Yes, you are right. But again, this is saying the same thing in a different way. Putting off the old man and putting on the new man is the same thing as walking in the Spirit, and is the same thing as not conforming to the world but renew your mind, and the same thing as consider yourselves to be dead to sin and alive to God. They all speak to a daily/momemt-by-moment action we must take after God set us apart and cleaned us up for service to Him.
Got it. The man of GodThis verse can be talking about many things. Most likely it is talking about God's commitment to finish what He started on the day of our final redemption. The ESV indicates this most clearly... ("And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" ESV). But it can't be used as a biblical reference to help define "sanctification" because the word is not mentioned.
Alright! the man of GodThis verse is referring to self-sanctification, as the surrounding context (1 Thess 4:1–8) proves. Everything there discusses what we must do to separate ourselves from sin to God. It is not discussing God cleaning us up over time.
Noted. the man of GodYou must know that "being sanctified" in this verse is a present participle, meaning that the time of action is contemporaneus with the action of the main verb. In this case, the main verb is "He has perfected", and it is a perfect tense, active voice, and indicative mood. It reprepresents action that God took in past time with abiding results, the emphasis being on the abiding results. Therefore, "sanctified" must take the same time of action which is past time. The NASB renders this coincidence correctly... ("For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified" (Heb 10:14 NASB).
Hummmm....... ThoughtfulAgain, this verse does not help define "sanctification". The exact words lend themselves more to the idea of spiritual maturation rather than sanctification. I think if you investigate this further, you will see that your ideas of sanctification and spiritual maturation are inttermixed.
Great way to explain. Thank you so much and more blessingsThis is a familiar teaching and is popular in Baptist circles too. But it confuses God's sanctification of us (which is one-time) with our own self-sanctifcation (which is ongoing). A better rendering (supported by Scripture) is the following.
- Justification and God's Sanctification - once and for all,
- Self-Sanctification - is daily, Spirit-led, and often messy,
- Glorification - when the old man is finally dead and gone for good.
Dear Honorable Man of God,Buddy, you are not understanding what is happening here. I have not been "struggling" for decades. I have been victorious in Christ for decades. And this has not led to decades of ignorance about my spiritual growth. It has led to clarity and great understanding. And the reason is simple. When we trust Jesus as He leads, guides, teaches, directs, corrects and comforts us from our own hearts, our understanding of our new lives in Christ improves. You are just now beginning your study of these things, and I encourage you to trust Jesus when He challenges you on these items we are discussing.
Please share if it possible. again Thank you so much for deeply analyzing the things and explaining welllease understand that I am trying to pass on to you the things that God first taught me. I can share the entire section of my book that deals with sanctification if it would be helpful.
Logos Bible software makes it easy to do morphological searchesWOW! what a way of observation. I have no doubt on your maturity in the understanding of the word of God. May God bless you more and more!
theWord program is free and you can do the same without spending the money LinkLogos Bible software makes it easy to do morphological searches. There are 244 verses with present passive indicative verbs in the NT...
Logos has a free version also. Unfortunately for both, you have to spend money if you want works not in the public domain.theWord program is free and you can do the same without spending the money Link
Not to do what you showed in regard to MorphologyLogos has a free version also. Unfortunately for both, you have to spend money if you want works not in the public domain.
That's a cool free feature.Not to do what you showed in regard to Morphology
God's law was never given as a way of becoming righteous, but rather the only way for someone to become righteous is through faith. God's law describes the life of someone who is righteous are it describes the life of Christ, so someone who becomes righteous through faith is becoming a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law through the same faith. To say that God is righteous means that He is a doer of righteous works, so while the only way to become righteous is by faith apart from being required to have first done enough righteous works in order to earn it as the result, there is no such thing as someone being righteous apart from also being a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law, which is why the same faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works also upholds God's law (Romans 3:28-31).19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (Ro 3:19–20)
These two sentences are pretty easy to understand. The first sentence says that the law shuts every person's mouth and causes them to understand they are guilty of sin before God. For these reasons, the second sentence says that God will not declare anyone righteous on the basis of their obedience to the law, and everyone understands this because the law teaches people they are sinners.
Do these verses speak the truth? Does everyone who sees/hears/knows the law understand they are sinners and that God will not declare them righteous on the basis of their obedience to the law? Yes. It is not phyiscally possible for a person to gaze into the law and go away deceived into thinking he is right with God because of his obedience to the law.
Why then, do we see so many people speaking the opposite? The most obvious plausible answer is that they know it but are supressing the truth. There may be other answers, but I can't think of any.
True.God's law was never given as a way of becoming righteous, but rather the only way for someone to become righteous is through faith.
There always needs to be a loop back to obedience to the law or else legalism fails to be legalism.God's law describes the life of someone who is righteousareor it describes the life of Christ, so someone who becomes righteous through faith is becoming a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law through the same faith.
We do not measure God's righteousness by His works. It is His nature. He is holy, and righteous, and can not be turned away to sin.To say that God is righteous means that He is a doer of righteous works
Thank you for eliminating the possibility that we earn righteousness by doing righteous things., so while the only way to become righteous is by faith apart from being required to have first done enough righteous works in order to earn it as the result,
So there is no concept in Scripture that faith is counted as righteousness? What about the following?there is no such thing as someone being righteous apart from also being a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law
There it is again -- a loop back to righteousness through obedience to the law., which is why the same faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works also upholds God's law (Romans 3:28-31).
I find this to be a curious loophole. You are saying that unrighteousness does not count as unrighteousness if after breaking the law a person returns again to the law and submits to it. But of course, it is a necessary loophole, right? Why is it necessary? Because, as you said, we are not sinless. We must have the loophole, otherwise we all perish (i.e., the wages of sin is death).While all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, there are nevertheless many people who are described as being righteous in the Bible, such as Noah (Genesis 6:8-9) and Zechariah and Elizabeth (Luke 1:5-6), so we are not required to be sinless in order to be righteous, but rather we repent after we have sinned and return to being a doer of righteous works.
What do you mean by "legalism"? If it is legalism for God to graciously teach us to obey His law and it is legalism for Jesus to graciously set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to it, then legalism would be a good thing, but that is not what I think it means.True.
There always needs to be a loop back to obedience to the law or else legalism fails to be legalism.
Psalms 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways and kind in all his works.We do not measure God's righteousness by His works. It is His nature. He is holy, and righteous, and can not be turned away to sin.
You're welcome.Thank you for eliminating the possibility that we earn righteousness by doing righteous things.
I stated that there is no such thing as someone being righteous apart from also being a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law. I did not state that there is no concept in Scripture that faith is counted as righteousness. While the only way for someone to become righteous is through faith apart from being required to have first done enough righteous works in order to earn it as the result, what it means for someone to become righteous is for them to become a doer of righteous works. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, and in 1 John 3:4-7, everyone who is a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law is righteous even as they are righteous.So there is no concept in Scripture that faith is counted as righteousness? What about the following?
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,And whose sins are covered;8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.” (Ro 4:5–8).
No, the fact that we are declared righteous by faith apart from works does not abolish our need to be a doer of righteous works, which is not righteousness through obedience to the law.There it is again -- a loop back to righteousness through obedience to the law.
People in the Bible stated that someone else was more righteous than them (Genesis 38:26, 1 Samuel 24:17), so righteousness is not all or nothing, but rather for someone to be righteous means that their life is direct at being a doer of righteous works. Someone being righteous does not mean that they always do what is righteous, but that it is the goal that they are aimed at and when they have not acted righteously, then they repent. Likewise, someone being courageous does not mean that they have always acted courageously, but that their goal is to act courageously and they repent when they have not.I find this to be a curious loophole. You are saying that unrighteousness does not count as unrighteousness if after breaking the law a person returns again to the law and submits to it. But of course, it is a necessary loophole, right? Why is it necessary? Because, as you said, we are not sinless. We must have the loophole, otherwise we all perish (i.e., the wages of sin is death).
In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus spent hi ministry teaching and in what he accomplished through the cross is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law. We can do works that embody our faith, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith by his works, so everyone who is a doer of the same works as James has faith in Jesus. The significance of our obedience to God's law is not that is is part of something that we are required to have successfully done first in order to earn becoming right with God as the result, but rather the significance is that it is the way to embody our faith, and it is by that faith that we are made right with God. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. Repentance is inherently an act of faith by turning away from doing what is right in our own eyes towards trusting in God with all of our heart to correctly leads us through His law and he will make our way straight.But repentance and returning to the law to obey it does not eliminate the wages that sinning earns, as if renewing one's commitment to do everything the Lord requires eliminates the dept we owe for disobedience. The only way one may find remission of sins is in the sacrifice Christ paid for our sins. As a reult of this, if there is any reconcilement of a sinner to God after he has broken one of God's requirements, then it can only be said that the reconcilemnet is because Jesus Christ bore that sin on the cross. And it is unimaginable to me why a person who often must rely on Christ's sacrifice for his sins would want to think of Himself as right with God because of his success in obeying His laws.
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