Bush: Intelligent Design or Devious Scheme?

Zoot · Aug 5, 2005

So Bush is pushing to intelligent design... in public schools. But expensive private schools will continue to teach kids actual information. Is this a scheme to ensure the poor stay poor, as the only education they can afford (free) becomes more and more twisted and inferior?

sidiousmax225 · Aug 5, 2005

Neither, he's just ignorant of science.

Zoot · Aug 5, 2005

I dunno, man. If you were really, really smart, wouldn't you want everyone to think you were stupid? And if you wanted to increase the gap between the rich and the poor, wouldn't you want religious beliefs taught as facts in high schools?

ARE YOU PARANOID ENOUGH?

hoser · Aug 5, 2005

Zoot said:
So Bush is pushing to intelligent design... in public schools. But expensive private schools will continue to teach kids actual information. Is this a scheme to ensure the poor stay poor, as the only education they can afford (free) becomes more and more twisted and inferior?

What in the world are you talking about. It is and has been for a very long time that lib's run the public schools. That is why they are failing. The answer to our pathetic public education? Get rid of the left wing teachers and get rid of the left wing curriculum. That'll do it.

Zoot · Aug 5, 2005

What in the world are you talking about. It is and has been for a very long time that lib's run the public schools. That is why they are failing. The answer to our pathetic public education? Get rid of the left wing teachers and get rid of the left wing curriculum. That'll do it.

Or, you know, buy computers in schools instead of guidance systems for missiles. That might do it too.

billwald · Aug 5, 2005

The purpose of govt schools is to produce compliant drones for the job market which is why a third of govt school teachers send their kids to private schools.

platzapS · Aug 6, 2005

The purpose of govt schools is to produce compliant drones for the job market which is why a third of govt school teachers send their kids to private schools.

That's interesting. Do you have a source?

IrishJohan · Aug 6, 2005

platzapS said:
That's interesting. Do you have a source?

Putting aside motives, the Thomas B. Fordham Foundation (an advocate of school choice) has an interesting study drawn from US Census records:

http://www.edexcellence.net/doc/Fwd-1.1.pdf

Pax Christi,
John

Fa'Head · Aug 6, 2005

Education has been a big concern of mine, especially since I've noticed that kids in public schools are not as well taught as they were when I was there. I have a stepson whom you only have to talk with to realize that he is smart, yet his spelling, his cursive, his penmanship overall is atrocious. It's that way because even his English teachers won't expend to much effort to correct him (Can't have none of those horrible red marks on a child's paper, you know). Also ,not much effort has been made to teach him how to problem-solve by using reference materials like dictionaries, encyclopedias and what-not.

I have a husband and wife couple as neighbors who are public school teachers. In a candid conversation with them, they have said that are expected to reach a certain passing percentage in their classes. If those numbers are not achieved then their higher-ups "suggest" to them that "something" be done to improve those numbers. Reading between the lines you come to realize that improving a child's quality of education is often not the first choice in improving the numbers. Our children have become only numbers and the numbers have to be good.

Whether it's a conspiracy to keep the elite better educated than the common man ( seems plausible ) or just a common evolution of a society where numbers matter and it's often easier to just doctor the numbers for better results than improve the conditions under which the numbers are achieved, I don't really know. But there is a problem and we, who like to boast about being one of the best countries on earth, are seriously jeopardizing our future bragging rights, IMO.

Fineous_Reese · Aug 6, 2005

Zoot said:
What in the world are you talking about. It is and has been for a very long time that lib's run the public schools. That is why they are failing. The answer to our pathetic public education? Get rid of the left wing teachers and get rid of the left wing curriculum. That'll do it.

Or, you know, buy computers in schools instead of guidance systems for missiles. That might do it too.

That's interesting, do you have a source?

reverend B · Aug 6, 2005

hoser said:
What in the world are you talking about. It is and has been for a very long time that lib's run the public schools. That is why they are failing. The answer to our pathetic public education? Get rid of the left wing teachers and get rid of the left wing curriculum. That'll do it.

unfortunately, that would leave us with no teachers at all, as the conservatives would not take the jobs because of the money. if what you are saying is true, the only reason could be that the conservatives have not decided to dedicate themselves to the education of children or certainly their influence in the schools would be much higher. but you'll never get rich by serving people, unless you go into politics.
hopefully it is obvious that i am not accepting your premise but simply pointing out the absurdity of it. all conservative are not money grubbing scoundrels any more than all liberals are self sacrificing martyrs. partisanship makes people lose their coherence sometimes.

Norseman · Aug 6, 2005

Fa'Head said:
Education has been a big concern of mine, especially since I've noticed that kids in public schools are not as well taught as they were when I was there. I have a stepson whom you only have to talk with to realize that he is smart, yet his spelling, his cursive, his penmanship overall is atrocious. It's that way because even his English teachers won't expend to much effort to correct him (Can't have none of those horrible red marks on a child's paper, you know). Also ,not much effort has been made to teach him how to problem-solve by using reference materials like dictionaries, encyclopedias and what-not.

Penmanship and cursive are both just about useless these days. Writing anything important and/or long by pen/pencil is like trying to eat your cereal with a butter knife. I'll give you the spelling, but I think that's beyond the teacher's control. I received the same education as a friend of mine, yet I am far better at spelling than he is. We went to the same schools, we had similar teachers, we just came out differently. I personally have more of an interest in learning how to spell words than he does. This interest can't be ground into children, so those who aren't good at spelling will just have to find a lifestyle that doesn't require that they be able to spell very good.

Fa'Head said:
I have a husband and wife couple as neighbors who are public school teachers. In a candid conversation with them, they have said that are expected to reach a certain passing percentage in their classes. If those numbers are not achieved then their higher-ups "suggest" to them that "something" be done to improve those numbers. Reading between the lines you come to realize that improving a child's quality of education is often not the first choice in improving the numbers. Our children have become only numbers and the numbers have to be good.

I'll give you this. I don't think the emphasis should be on competition or arbitrary grades. It should be on learning skills and being able to use those skills.

Fa'Head said:
Whether it's a conspiracy to keep the elite better educated than the common man ( seems plausible ) or just a common evolution of a society where numbers matter and it's often easier to just doctor the numbers for better results than improve the conditions under which the numbers are achieved, I don't really know. But there is a problem and we, who like to boast about being one of the best countries on earth, are seriously jeopardizing our future bragging rights, IMO.

I agree with this as well. One of two things needs to be changed. Either college level education needs to be made available to all (from bums to billionaires) or companies need to be unable to use college education as a tool in deciding whether or not to hire you. They would have to rely on skill tests, skills that could be self-taught if necessary.

Norseman · Aug 6, 2005

Fineous_Reese said:
That's interesting, do you have a source?

What? That schools don't have enough money? Or that we spend a lot on the military?

mamabear4 · Aug 6, 2005

Do you want my humble opinion?

There is no more scientific proof the universe evolved from one tiny amoeba than there is that God said, "Let there be light." No earthly human being was there to observe the beginning of this great universe of ours, so we have no written record of what happened, except what was given to man after the fact by the Great Spirit that "moved over the face of the waters...." and that Spirit was God, who claims to have created us, our world, our space and time. (Personally, I find that explanation much more believeable than the evolutionary claims that find only excuses for the many gaps in its chain of events. No matter what a person believes about our origins we must accept a large part of our beliefs on the premises of faith, even evolution. )

So, if no one was there to record the beginning, what is being taught as science is not science after all but only theory. (Even Darwin would agree with that.) If the American government is going to be fair and honest, we must acknowledge that evolution does not answer all the questions concerning our origin, and if there is another theory, we should give equal time to both.

Fineous_Reese · Aug 6, 2005

Norseman said:
What? That schools don't have enough money? Or that we spend a lot on the military?

sources for everything, that's the liberal way, no? if you don't like something then demand sources you can discredit afterwards. see, liberals CAN teach things to conservatives!

but seriously

blithely stating that more computers in schools by spending less money for the military is somehow not only better overall but something the US federal gov't should be doing is absurd so i'd like to see sources stating why this should be done.

and no, no sources for why it's absurd, re-read the constitution for more info on what the federal gov't should be doing

butterfoot · Aug 6, 2005

I hear everyone bashing public education. I could afford my kids to go to a private school but I do send my to a public school. As long as they teach what the state requires that is fine with me. I take everything else and teach them at home. It is the stuff Kids learn at home that becomes invaulable in the way they live their life and how they learn to treat money and social issues.

-cw

mamabear4 · Aug 6, 2005

cameronw said:
I hear everyone bashing public education. I could afford my kids to go to a private school but I do send my to a public school. As long as they teach what the state requires that is fine with me. I take everything else and teach them at home. It is the stuff Kids learn at home that becomes invaulable in the way they live their life and how they learn to treat money and social issues.

Public schools vary greatly in teaching quality from one district to the next, but especially so from one state to the next. It's hard to judge whether public schools are succeeding or failing, based only on a local perspective.

But back to the original question, do we think Bush is supporting Creationism or pushing a devious scheme? I think he's merely trying to return fairness to our schools.

Wolf Georges · Aug 6, 2005

cameronw said:
I hear everyone bashing public education. I could afford my kids to go to a private school but I do send my to a public school. As long as they teach what the state requires that is fine with me. I take everything else and teach them at home. It is the stuff Kids learn at home that becomes invaulable in the way they live their life and how they learn to treat money and social issues.

-cw

Right on!

Parents give way too much credit to schools, media, government and cultural fads.

My son will go to public school where he will (hopefully) get a good education. At home, my wife and I will "de-program" him of any agendas that his teachers might have....be they radical liberals or conservatives. I have equal disdain for the condescending rants of both. Morals are taught by parents, more by example than anything else. I believe in God and I also believe in evolution. I will do everything in my power to impart faith and logical knowledge to my son. Neither a Republican or Democratic government will change that because...that is not their job.

Wolf Georges · Aug 6, 2005

mamabear4 said:
Public schools vary greatly in teaching quality from one district to the next, but especially so from one state to the next. It's hard to judge whether public schools are succeeding or failing, based only on a local perspective.

But back to the original question, do we think Bush is supporting Creationism or pushing a devious scheme? I think he's merely trying to return fairness to our schools.

In my opinion it's not a devious scheme or a matter of fairness....just politics as usual.

k9catts · Aug 6, 2005

The ID vs evolution is a distraction from the real problems facing our schools.

As long as we were a country independent with our own natural resources we did not care about what was taught in the schools. The kids went to school, got a job, made a family, worked 20-30 years and retired to Florida.

Now we are in a world economy and whether we teach ID or evolution is irrelvelent. Whether the schools are public or pirvate is also irrelvelent. If our children lose jobs to some offshore countries it will not matter if they believe in ID or evolution if all they have to say is "Welcome to Walmart".

I understand I over-simplified. Sorry!

I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. - Susan B. Anthony

The news has been cancelled Randi Rhodes AAR

Zoot said:
So Bush is pushing to intelligent design... in public schools. But expensive private schools will continue to teach kids actual information. Is this a scheme to ensure the poor stay poor, as the only education they can afford (free) becomes more and more twisted and inferior?

Bush: Intelligent Design or Devious Scheme?

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