Brainwashed

Ann M said:

Maybe that's why we took to divorce so well. Don't like this Church, pack up, move on. Don't like this husband, pack up, move on.

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I hear that. It's part of living in a disposable plastic society..we throw everthing away when we are done with it.....razor blades, plastic bottles, etc. As you well know, the disposable culture we live in makes even our spouses and our children disposable as well. A sad commentary on our times.

Paul S said:

Remember what Mary said at Cana: "Do whatever He tells you." Mary, and all those in heaven, want us to follow God's will, and would never ask a fellow Christian to do something against God's will.

Through that prayer, we're really devoting ourselves to her Son through His mother.

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I'm trying to understand this; truly I am! To me, what you just said would be like if I spent lots and lots of time with my husband's mother instead of my husband himself. I could pour out my attention and love and words of admiration on her (and of course I should show her love and respect), but since I am able to show him my love directly, I wouldn't need to be overly lavish with my praise for my mother-in-law. Sure, my husband wouldn't be here if she had not borne him, but as a wife I commanded to love my husband. I am not fulfilling that command if I make his mother the object of my devotion. As a Christian, we are commanded to love God with our entire heart, mind, soul, and strength. I do think God wants us to love and respect Mary, but He certainly doesn't command us to "give all we have and all we are to her."
I guess I was hoping that someone would say "Oh, you know, I've heard that kind of prayer to Mary too, and ya' know, that does go overboard. Catholic teaching does not say we are to pledge our entire lives to Mary, but only to God Alone."
So, would all catholics say that the prayer I mentioned in my previous post is an acceptable, perhaps even common, prayer to Mary?
respectfully as always, kayanne

kayanne said:

One of them included something about "I give my entire body and soul and mind and everything I am and everything I have to you Mary" (sorry if it's a poor paraphrase, but that is the general idea).

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You know this sounds suspiciously like a part of a wedding ceremony, where we devote ourselves to each other 'to have and to hold', 'to love honour and cherish' etc etc. If your wedding vow was written in the exact same phrase as above, would you refuse to say it?

kayanne said:

I guess I was hoping that someone would say "Oh, you know, I've heard that kind of prayer to Mary too, and ya' know, that does go overboard. Catholic teaching does not say we are to pledge our entire lives to Mary, but only to God Alone."
So, would all catholics say that the prayer I mentioned in my previous post is an acceptable, perhaps even common, prayer to Mary?

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Hi Kayanne

You know me well enough to know that I'm not mocking you when I say this:

I've heard that kind of prayer to Mary before too, and I'm not entirely comfortable with it. I hesitate to use the word "overboard" because I don't know a person's heart or intentions when he/she is praying that prayer. To me "overboard" means that it's something inappropriate, and I'm not willing to go that far. I personally would not pray it, because I am not at that point. For me, praying that would be mere words.

Here's your prayers to continue this conversation kayanne

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Morning consecration to Mary

My Queen, My Mother, I offer
myself entirely to Thee.
And to show my devotion to Thee,
I offer Thee this day, my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart,
my whole being without reserve.
Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as Thy property and possession.
Amen

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Prayer to Our Lady of Czestochowa

O Mother of God, Immaculate Mary, to Thee do I dedicate my body and soul, all my prayers and deeds, my joys and sufferings, all that I am an all that I have. With a joyful heart I surrender myself to Thy love. To Thee will I devote my services of my own free will for the salvation of mankind, and for the help of the Holy Church whose Mother Thou art.
From now on my only desire is to do all things with Thee, through Thee, and for Thee. I know I can accomplish nothing by my own strength, whereas You can do everything that is the will of Thy Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ. You are always victorious. Grant, therefore, O Helper of the Faithful, that my family, my parish, and my country might become in truth the Kingdom where Thou reignest in the glorious presence God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, forever and ever.
Amen.

do you remember the scene in the christmas carol by dickens , where the ghost opens his robes to reveal the children of man ?

ignorance and fear .... we fear what we do not know , understand , or have been indoctrinated to reject .

that is the good thing of the dialogue here , that one can get an honest answer to an honest question , once you filter a bit of spam , and preconceptions out

faith , hope , love , Jesus ^ risen ...

BjBarnett said:

is it me or is there a sudden rise in people coming to argue about Catholic Doctrine on this forum? seems like i have seen about a dozen new members (400 posts or less i would say) that have started threads or participated in threads that distort the catholic faith.

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I too have seen an increase in posts with questions about Catholicism and like you said...distorting the Catholic faith.

It just shows the world we Catholics face everyday. But it is also good because if they have questions we have answers for them that will hopefully help them understand and clear some misconceptions up about our faith.

kayanne said:

... I know you absolutely hate it when non-caths say or think that you worship Mary ... But I was reading on another website recently, various prayers to Mary. One of them included something about "I give my entire body and soul and mind and everything I am and everything I have to you Mary" (sorry if it's a poor paraphrase, but that is the general idea) ... To me (and probably to most non-cath christians) such a statement is an expression of worship, and would rightly belong only to God ...

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In commenting on 1 Corinthians 8:10-12:

For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.

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CS Lewis suggests that Catholics and High Anglicans, when meeting their "low" Protestant brothers, should refrain from doing things that could be misinterpreted as idolatry, lest they offend against this principle.

Similarly he suggests that "low" Protestants, when meeting Catholics and High Anglicans, should cross themselves, etc., lest by seeming irreligious they also offend against this principle.

He was a wise man, and I think he might have been onto something... what do you all think?

-- Radagast

kayanne said:

I'm trying to understand this; truly I am! To me, what you just said would be like if I spent lots and lots of time with my husband's mother instead of my husband himself. I could pour out my attention and love and words of admiration on her (and of course I should show her love and respect), but since I am able to show him my love directly, I wouldn't need to be overly lavish with my praise for my mother-in-law. Sure, my husband wouldn't be here if she had not borne him, but as a wife I commanded to love my husband. I am not fulfilling that command if I make his mother the object of my devotion. As a Christian, we are commanded to love God with our entire heart, mind, soul, and strength. I do think God wants us to love and respect Mary, but He certainly doesn't command us to "give all we have and all we are to her."
I guess I was hoping that someone would say "Oh, you know, I've heard that kind of prayer to Mary too, and ya' know, that does go overboard. Catholic teaching does not say we are to pledge our entire lives to Mary, but only to God Alone."
So, would all catholics say that the prayer I mentioned in my previous post is an acceptable, perhaps even common, prayer to Mary?
respectfully as always, kayanne

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Hello kayanne
You used an example of mother-in-law, so I have a question.
Do you treat your mother-in-law differently than you do your own mother? Do you give her less respect or admiration?
Catholics see Mary as our Mother, we love her as our own mother.
I do see how some prayers,especially if they are not sanctioned by the Church, could be over zealous, but they are meant for those who have promised to work,help,and devote themselves to help the Blessed Mother.

Radagast said:

CS Lewis suggests that Catholics and High Anglicans, when meeting their "low" Protestant brothers, should refrain from doing things that could be misinterpreted as idolatry, lest they offend against this principle.

Similarly he suggests that "low" Protestants, when meeting Catholics and High Anglicans, should cross themselves, etc., lest by seeming irreligious they also offend against this principle.

He was a wise man, and I think he might have been onto something... what do you all think?

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I'd never thought about that in relation to Scripture before, but I do agree, as long as the reason a person is doing/not doing something isn't because he is ashamed of his faith and simply wants to blend in.