Bottom issue of creationism

rmills · Mar 26, 2004

JohnCJ said:
The Bible is the whole truth.
Does the whole truth have to include all the details to be true?

Now we are getting somewhere!

In the case of the Bible, we are told what we are told to uphold the purpose and ministry of Jesus Christ. The Bible includes all that it needs to for this purpose and we both agree that it is a whole truth.

JohnCJ · Mar 26, 2004

Does the whole truth have to include all the details to be true?

rmills · Mar 26, 2004

JohnCJ said:
Does the whole truth have to include all the details to be true?

In the case of the Bible, No. Why? Because it is taken as the whole truth via faith.

In a similar respect, faith is required for TE or Creation but is not the same faith. That faith can not be equated the faith we have in the brake peddal. We cannot call something truth without the facts or evidence to support it. Simplistic truths (such as 2+2=4) are not faith based truths.

Didaskomenos · Mar 26, 2004

This article is very interesting and contains a lot of truth. I think Berry's prognosis of the bottom issue of creationism needs a practical context to be understood fully.

The problem is the Bible. That's it. The bottom issue is authority. So many Christians value the idea that they just open a book and within it is found literally everything God says about everything. This "whole truth" is immediately understandable, and requires really no critical thinking. In fact, they have misappropriated the dichotomy of "spiritual" vs. "physical" by equating on some level "the flesh" and "reason" under the heading "physical". That's why they've forgotten that both spiritual and rational are equally essential takes on Truth, which we as Christians are to seek and love at all costs. For them, it's a worldly, humanistic, carnal mind that reads the Bible and doesn't take the most obvious meaning from it, a methodology for hermeneutics they foolishly and arrogantly consider "spiritual". It's just so much easier to accept the Bible as a homogenous whole than it is to use the mind to contextualize each portion and rely on the Spirit to illuminate the truth contained in its various parts. I ask you which takes more faith in God.

And this is why they feel that the spiritual truth underlying Scripture is assaulted when silly, superficial, non-contexual interpretations are debunked. They have them inextricably intertwined.

rmills · Mar 26, 2004

Didaskomenos said:
This article is very interesting and contains a lot of truth. I think Berry's prognosis of the bottom issue of creationism needs a practical context to be understood fully.

The problem is the Bible. That's it. The bottom issue is authority. So many Christians value the idea that they just open a book and within it is found literally everything God says about everything. This "whole truth" is immediately understandable, and requires really no critical thinking. In fact, they have misappropriated the dichotomy of "spiritual" vs. "physical" by equating on some level "the flesh" and "reason" under the heading "physical". That's why they've forgotten that both spiritual and rational are equally essential takes on Truth, which we as Christians are to seek and love at all costs. For them, it's a worldly, humanistic, carnal mind that reads the Bible and doesn't take the most obvious meaning from it, a methodology for hermeneutics they foolishly and arrogantly consider "spiritual". It's just so much easier to accept the Bible as a homogenous whole than it is to use the mind to contextualize each portion and rely on the Spirit to illuminate the truth contained in its various parts. I ask you which takes more faith in God.

And this is why they feel that the spiritual truth underlying Scripture is assaulted when silly, superficial, non-contexual interpretations are debunked. They have them inextricably intertwined.

Wow! That was an awesome post! Wow!

fragmentsofdreams · Mar 26, 2004

JohnCJ said:
The Bible is the whole truth.
Does the whole truth have to include all the details to be true?

The Bible is not the whole truth because the whole truth is God. The Bible does not even contain the whole truth because God cannot be contained in a book that can sit upon my desk. The Bible contains the truth, but by its very nature this truth is limited.

Curt · Mar 28, 2004

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Pet 1:20
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2 Sam 14:14
14 For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.
Job 37:24
24 Men do therefore fear him: he respecteth not any that are wise of heart.

Reply

The Bible as written, and The Holy Spirit is all the circumcised in the heart believer will ever need to maintain themselves on that narrow path that leads to the straight gate. All the eutics, doctrines, isms, osophys, and ologys of men are no more than man leaning to his own understanding. God's Word is esteemed by Him higher than Himself, and anything that we can not with the understanding figure out The Holy Spirit will reveal to us when He knows we are ready for it and need it. Every thing we need to know about creation is written in The Bible, it took God 6 days, and He confiremed that fact in other parts of The Scriptures when He gave the people the 6 work day's 7th day rest law. No man by any method or amount of intellectual reasoning is ever going to change that fact. If God had wanted us to proove anything about Him or His word He would have instructed us to do so. The fact is He told us His method for forming all of our doctrines, and if we will all do that we would all come to the same conclusions, and that's The Truth of the matter. Bottom line of creation is 6 days, and that includes everything.

Chi_Cygni · Mar 28, 2004

Curt said:
2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Pet 1:20
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2 Sam 14:14
14 For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.
Job 37:24
24 Men do therefore fear him: he respecteth not any that are wise of heart.

Reply

The Bible as written, and The Holy Spirit is all the circumcised in the heart believer will ever need to maintain themselves on that narrow path that leads to the straight gate. All the eutics, doctrines, isms, osophys, and ologys of men are no more than man leaning to his own understanding. God's Word is esteemed by Him higher than Himself, and anything that we can not with the understanding figure out The Holy Spirit will reveal to us when He knows we are ready for it and need it. Every thing we need to know about creation is written in The Bible, it took God 6 days, and He confiremed that fact in other parts of The Scriptures when He gave the people the 6 work day's 7th day rest law. No man by any method or amount of intellectual reasoning is ever going to change that fact. If God had wanted us to proove anything about Him or His word He would have instructed us to do so. The fact is He told us His method for forming all of our doctrines, and if we will all do that we would all come to the same conclusions, and that's The Truth of the matter. Bottom line of creation is 6 days, and that includes everything.

Huh? Zzzzzzz Zzzzzzz

Curt · Mar 28, 2004

Chi_Cygni said:
Huh? Zzzzzzz Zzzzzzz

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Pet 1:20
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2 Sam 14:14
14 For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.
Job 37:24
24 Men do therefore fear him: he respecteth not any that are wise of heart.

Reply

As soon as you Hear The Holy Spirit moving on your spirit saying wake up, that means He wants to reveal some Biblical Truth to you. You are better off asleep in the darkness than awake. There are what God call's sins of ignorance which can be repented of. Don't be like the Apostles when Jesus told them to watch with Him one hour, and they fell asleep. It's pretty sad when one sleeps when the light is so close at hand, even as close as The Bible.

rmwilliamsll · Mar 29, 2004

The Bible as written, and The Holy Spirit is all the circumcised in the heart believer will ever need to maintain themselves on that narrow path that leads to the straight gate. All the eutics, doctrines, isms, osophys, and ologys of men are no more than man leaning to his own understanding. God's Word is esteemed by Him higher than Himself, and anything that we can not with the understanding figure out The Holy Spirit will reveal to us when He knows we are ready for it and need it. Every thing we need to know about creation is written in The Bible, it took God 6 days, and He confiremed that fact in other parts of The Scriptures when He gave the people the 6 work day's 7th day rest law. No man by any method or amount of intellectual reasoning is ever going to change that fact. If God had wanted us to proove anything about Him or His word He would have instructed us to do so. The fact is He told us His method for forming all of our doctrines, and if we will all do that we would all come to the same conclusions, and that's The Truth of the matter. Bottom line of creation is 6 days, and that includes everything.

at best this is misplaced zeal.
but more probably it is a destructive misapplication of Sola Scriptura that thinks that them + Bible is all the religious knowledge needed.
neglect the fact that the Bible is addressed not to us but to it's original readers, to their culture, linguistic community, not ours. we are evesdroppers, by God's design, but like our being adopted not natural children of God, we are to exegetic Scripture, not presumptious naivette.

you need dictionaries, maps, concordances just to start.
God spoke to our ancestors just as authenicately and reliablly as He speaks to this writer, perhaps more since they were willing to do their required homework and study. so that makes up for commentaries, sermons, lectures, letters and the rest.

just like an eye is the only organ that sees, that is nothing else sees.
an eye alone on a table is incapable of sight, having been severed from its natural context which made the activity of sight possible.

the Bible, mis appropriated as independent of all other human thought is not the Word of God, but words on paper, worshipped by biblioidolaters, and unable to coomunicate the essentilas of salvation as a result

Curt · Mar 29, 2004

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Pet 1:20
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2 Sam 14:14
14 For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.
Job 37:24
24 Men do therefore fear him: he respecteth not any that are wise of heart.

Reply
at best this is misplaced zeal.
Zeal yes, misplace no. I have great zeal for God's Truth.

but more probably it is a destructive misapplication of Sola Scriptura that thinks that them + Bible is all the religious knowledge needed.
neglect the fact that the Bible is addressed not to us but to it's original readers, to their culture, linguistic community, not ours. we are evesdroppers, by God's design, but like our being adopted not natural children of God, we are to exegetic Scripture, not presumptious naivette.
This totally refutes not only The above Scriptures but all Those in The Bible that tell us God is no respector of persons. It came from the tree of knowledge of. The real knowledge comes from The Tree Of Life, knowing God through personal relationship.

rmwilliamsll · Mar 29, 2004

Curt said:
2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Pet 1:20
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2 Sam 14:14
14 For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.
Job 37:24
24 Men do therefore fear him: he respecteth not any that are wise of heart.

Reply
at best this is misplaced zeal.
Zeal yes, misplace no. I have great zeal for God's Truth.

but more probably it is a destructive misapplication of Sola Scriptura that thinks that them + Bible is all the religious knowledge needed.
neglect the fact that the Bible is addressed not to us but to it's original readers, to their culture, linguistic community, not ours. we are evesdroppers, by God's design, but like our being adopted not natural children of God, we are to exegetic Scripture, not presumptious naivette.
This totally refutes not only The above Scriptures but all Those in The Bible that tell us God is no respector of persons. It came from the tree of knowledge of. The real knowledge comes from The Tree Of Life, knowing God through personal relationship.

where in the verses you quoted does a metaphor concerning 'tree of life' appear? where do you get that? what does it mean in the context of the quote from 2 Tim 3? why should i listen to your exegesis of Scripture when it contradicts my own? your viewpoint leads to solipsism. because it doesnt 'hook' your interpretation to anything but itself.

there is lots of material showing that consistent, educated, believing brethren understand the days of Gen1 to be other then strict chronology. why should i be persuaded by ignorance rather than their studious work?

Every thing we need to know about creation is written in The Bible,

the Bible is not a dictionary, not in Hebrew, nor Greek, nor English.
it requires a linguistic community to define a word, hence the inate problems with words that occur just one time as happens so often in Job. how to understand or translate requires context.

to ignore this falls prey to 'common sense', literal, modern day, interpretive technics that are simply unaware of how much is read into their exegesis. calling it the pure word of God does not change the fact that human beings MUST READ texts to gain the meaning. and this process involves, neccessily so, far more than the bare text.

Deamiter · Mar 29, 2004

People often ask me how I can pick and choose which parts of the Bible I wish to believe, and which are just 'nice stories'. This really confuses me, because I don't think ANYBODY takes the entire bible to be literally true! The Parables are not always labeled as stories, but we still assume them to be simple stories... There is so much symbolism in the psalms, in Isaiah, even in GENESIS that only a flat-earther could take literally... So why am I the only one accused of interpreting the scriptures?

Yeah, I could be wrong, but I don't think it's fair to accuse me of deliberately undermining God's Word when I open my eyes and use God's Word as I believe it is to be used: as a perfect guide to a beautiful relationship with my Lord and Creator! If I use it otherwise, I make the mistake that Augustine warned against in my signature.

Didaskomenos · Mar 29, 2004

rmills said:
Wow! That was an awesome post! Wow!

Is this the way you teach the kids in your youth group to discuss theological matters? Or vice versa?

rmills · Mar 30, 2004

Didaskomenos said:
Is this the way you teach the kids in your youth group to discuss theological matters? Or vice versa?

I do not understand the question. If you are asking, does youth group discussion look like the Creation Science & Thesitic Evolution forum? No absolutly not. I teach teens to use the tools they need to come to their own conclusions.

mattwebb22 · Mar 30, 2004

http://www.4church.tk

Didaskomenos · Mar 31, 2004

rmills said:
I do not understand the question. If you are asking, does youth group discussion look like the Creation Science & Thesitic Evolution forum? No absolutly not. I teach teens to use the tools they need to come to their own conclusions.

I can just hear it now, "So whenever someone you disagree with theologically states something they believe, simply dismiss whatever they said with the appropriate high school tactics. That way, you'll never need to discuss at all!"

lucaspa · Apr 2, 2004

rmills said:
How can you not understand? Is the word of God a whole truth or maybe just 30% truth or what? Should I use the term Bible instead of Word of God? Maybe just the red letters? What percentage do you call human fluff? What version do I have to read to be on the same page, or what Strongs or dictionary do I have to use to be cool like everyone else?

Rmills, go down to the list of statements about the apple:
1. "I eat apples." True.
2. "I eat apples with my mouth." Also true.

Now, is #1 less than the whole truth? Is it only 50% true?

There's also the issue that there are different types of truth. Does the Bible have to be true in all areas of the truth in order to be true theologically?

lucaspa · Apr 2, 2004

rmills said:
Now something different.

The cell is a part of an animal. A statement of fact.
Cells are not mentioned in the Bible. A statement of fact.
God did not put all data about the universe in the Bible. A statement of fact.

If God did put all data in the Bible please cite the verse for me.
How could I? This is the same argument that some creationists use against TEs, funny aint it? I dont agree with that argument at all regardless of what side it comes from so we can stop that.

But it is the argument you have used against evolution. You have claimed that Genesis does not mention evolution, therefore evolution is not true.

So, in the Bible we have the claim in several places "God created "

In Genesis 1-3 we have two stories of different ways God is supposed to have done this. In God's Creation we have yet a third story of how God created. So, how does evolution threaten the truth "God created"?

lucaspa · Apr 2, 2004

rmills said:
In the case of the Bible, No. Why? Because it is taken as the whole truth via faith.

But you have just agreed that the Bible is not the "whole truth" because it doesn't have all the details. So, the Bible is true, but does not contain the "whole truth".

Up above you stated: "It holds the keys to every answer needed for anyone anywhere! "
Notice that "every answer". You didn't say "every spiritual answer". So, I need that answer as to why my car won't start. Will I find the answer or even the key to the answer in the Bible? No. We are faced with the question of when human life begins. Do we have the key to that answer in the Bible? No. We have the question whether we should re-elect Bush. Is the answer in the Bible? No.

In a similar respect, faith is required for TE or Creation but is not the same faith.

First, TE is Creation. After all, TEs believe that God created. What you mean here is creationism. The same faith is not required for TE and creationism.

We cannot call something truth without the facts or evidence to support it.

Thank you for admitting that creationism is not true.

Remember, we can call something false when we have facts or evidence that contradicts it.

Simplistic truths (such as 2+2=4) are not faith based truths.

Actually, they are. Godel showed that in any mathematical system complicated enough to have addition and subtraction, there are statements in the system that can't be proved from within the system. So 2 + 2 = 4 is ultimately a faith based truth. Godel's Theorem led one person to joke: "If religion is believing where you cannot prove, then mathematics is the only religion to prove it is a religion."

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