Boston Explosions.

Lazydaisy67 said:

I think this is what bothers me the most. Compliance with a "martial law" simulation without even batting an eyelash. Regardless of who they're looking for or what that person is alledged to have done, a citizen of the U.S. is NOT required to let the police into their homes for a search without a warrant at any time, for any reason.

- Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin

I believe in that quote, and I believe the founding fathers constructed the constitution to protect the citizens from exactly what we witnessed on T.V. on Friday. They anticipated the rise of a government without restrictions, whose purpose was to control the people as they had been controlled by their previous government in England. It's certainly nothing new, it has and continues to happen in every society since the dawn of man. However, constitutional protections were what made America vastly different from every other country. Watching Friday in Boston unfold on T.V. was like watching something in North Korea. I have no doubt that there have been many back slaps and glasses lifted in cheer of catching the "terrorist", but taking into consideration the totality of the circumstances, the liberties of Bostonians (I'm not going to debate the EXACT number) were flagrantly tossed aside in the name of capturing one 19 year old boy and I'm very sad and deeply disturbed about that.

This is MHO. It's just a statement, it's not a bait into arguing the detailed points of every line in the constitution, or whether or not Islam is a peaceful or dangerous religion, blahdy blah. Simply what's on my mind.

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i started another thread all about how the people who make claims about resisting"government tyranny", need to take a long hard look at what the bombers accomplished and had happen to them. Its probably the best example of what "fighting goverment opression" looks like since Oklahoma city, or even Waco.

Blackwater Babe said:

i started another thread all about how the people who make claims about resisting"government tyranny", need to take a long hard look at what the bombers accomplished and had happen to them. Its probably the best example of what "fighting goverment opression" looks like since Oklahoma city, or even Waco.

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Not really, setting a bomb next to an 8 year old boy and trying to kill as many innocent people as possible, is an act of mass murder.

People that talk about fighting Government Tyranny in the US have by and large still maintain the attitude of trying to fight it through the ballot box...

GarfieldJL said:

Not really, setting a bomb next to an 8 year old boy and trying to kill as many innocent people as possible, is an act of mass murder.

People that talk about fighting Government Tyranny in the US have by and large still maintain the attitude of trying to fight it through the ballot box...

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Thanks for missing my point.

Lazydaisy67 said:

He wasn't found during the lockdown and he wasn't found by the door-to-door SWAT search.

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My point still stands.

Lazydaisy67 said:

He wasn't found during the lockdown and he wasn't found by the door-to-door SWAT search.

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He was trapped by the lockdown, located within its boundaries, and located within an hour of its being lifted.

Even if he wasn't found during the lock down, it still restricted his movement.

-Dan.

Blackwater Babe said:

i started another thread all about how the people who make claims about resisting"government tyranny", need to take a long hard look at what the bombers accomplished and had happen to them. Its probably the best example of what "fighting goverment opression" looks like since Oklahoma city, or even Waco.

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Aside from how distasteful I found that particular thread... you do realize that Waco had little to do with "fighting government oppression" right? It was a cult that was abusing children and stockpiling weapons. The fact that it was such a cluster flush was due completely to the stupidity of the ATF, who let reporters know it was going to happen (which lead to the Waco nuts knowing) and decided to go ahead with the raid, when they knew the nutters were aware they were coming.

Rion said:

Aside from how distasteful I found that particular thread... you do realize that Waco had little to do with "fighting government oppression" right? It was a cult that was abusing children and stockpiling weapons. The fact that it was such a cluster flush was due completely to the stupidity of the ATF, who let reporters know it was going to happen (which lead to the Waco nuts knowing) and decided to go ahead with the raid, when they knew the nutters were aware they were coming.

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Very true. But the militia gun nut antigovernment wackos found the Waco mess made quite a good talking point.

iluvatar5150 said:

He was trapped by the lockdown, located within its boundaries, and located within an hour of its being lifted.

Even if he wasn't found during the lock down, it still restricted his movement.

-Dan.

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Exactly. One just can't say if he's have gone on to kill more or would have escaped Boston altogether without the lock down... the lock down served its purpose.

cow451 said:

Very true. But the militia gun nut antigovernment wackos found the Waco mess made quite a good talking point.

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Yes, that and Ruby Ridge were great recruitment tools for the likes of McVeigh.

I myself do not understand how people who believe they are fighting the government in a way that will affect t are doing anything. Event like what happened in Boston and elsewhere only end up as a tragedy for the victims and death for the perpetrator. You would have to be extremely deranged to believe your actions make an effect at all.

NaughtyNinja said:

I myself do not understand how people who believe they are fighting the government in a way that will affect t are doing anything. Event like what happened in Boston and elsewhere only end up as a tragedy for the victims and death for the perpetrator. You would have to be extremely deranged to believe your actions make an effect at all.

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Then you'll love this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/24/us/boston-marathon-bombing-developments.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&hp

“He was looking for connections between the wars in the Middle East and oppression of Muslim population around the globe,” Mr. Khozhugov said in an e-mail. “It was very hard to argue with him on themes somehow connected to religion. On the other hand, he did not hate Christians. He respected their faith. Never said anything bad about other religions. But he was angry that the world pictures Islam as a violent religion.”

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Source: Boston bomb suspect says brother was brains behind attack - CNN.com

Preliminary interviews with Tsarnaev indicate the two brothers fit the classification of self-radicalized jihadists, the source said. Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, wounded and held in a Boston hospital, has said his brother — who was killed early Friday — wanted to defend Islam from attack, according to the source.

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Supreme said:

Exactly. One just can't say if he's have gone on to kill more or would have escaped Boston altogether without the lock down... the lock down served its purpose.

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And what exactly was the purpose of women being yanked out of their homes with children in their arms, having guns pointed in their face while they were being patted down and their homes being searched? THEY didn't fit any description of the 'terrorist', did they?

Here's how cooperation with the police looks in my world. Do you want me to phone in tips if I see something suspicious? I'm happy to. Do you want to ask me to not engage the killer and instead call the police? I'm happy to oblige. Do you want to deputize me and some other folks on the block and ask us to man a checkpoint on our street to check the ID of people driving on the street? I'm happy to be deputized. Do you want me to help the police by taking my dog out so that the dog can follow a trail of the killer? Sure, hang on for a sec while I go and get my dog.
I don't think there's anything wrong with being asked to cooperate with police, but that doesn't give them a blank check. They wouldn't have been able to get a warrant with "Your Honor, the suspect is somewhere in the Greater Boston Metropolitan Area and therefore we claim exigent circumstances and reasonable grounds to search every home in Boston in order to find the suspect." Yeah right. Good luck with that. If you have the guy pinned down to an 8 house block then a judge can issue a proper warrant and you can search the 8 houses. A whole city though is way over the line. Same too the treatment of the homeowners. Aiming your rifles at the homeowners as they exit their homes, ordering them to have their arms in the air, patting them down for weapons is pure Gestapo tactics. If the homeowner bears a resemblance to the suspect, then you most certainly have reasonable grounds to take such precautions but otherwise you're just raping people of their liberty.

Exigent circumstances are extremely time dependent. A series of bomb attacks from an unknown suspect creates the condition of future bomb attacks being very likely. A bomb suspect who is identified and on the run, wounded and on foot severely lessens the exigent circumstances. He's still a threat but the threat he poses is now on the level of a common killer on the run, such as a wife-killer or a guy in a bar fight or an ex-con who vows to never go to prison again. Cops deal with situations like this quite frequently without having to impose martial law type police state actions.

You cannot declare the constitution to be on vacation every time a cop gets killed or a bomb goes off, or a criminal is running and hiding from police. The Court has been clear that an emergency means that there is probable cause to believe that someone is in the process of being victimized or harmed. Not... something scary has happened and we want the scariness to end.
When did it become unreasonable require the cops to follow the law?

What evidence do you have that people where yanked from their homes? Maybe they where asked.

Rion said:

Then you'll love this:

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A Groznyj sympathizer it seems. I heard about this and I find it increasingly hilarious. To believe that he felt sympathy for the violence portrayed by Muslims when it is not all false. I have been instructed in dawah when I was younger and the notion of acquiring Americans who sympathize with strict Islamiy'yah ideals and trick many into the fold. These youths fell victim to that it seems and Grozynj Chechens are a major supporter of this form of Da'wah

That doesn't really sound to me like the police are politely asking for the cooperation of citizens. That looked like Iraq to me.

I'm sorry if you think I'm some kind of unpatriotic, anti-government freak because I bring this up. I can assure you I am not. I, and almost everybody I know residing here in the Midwest, were OUTRAGED to see our fellow American citizens being treated that way. That's all I'm saying. Again, this is my opinion and thank you for the opportunity to express it.

Lazydaisy67 said:

Shock Footage - Warrantless House-toHouse Raids In Boston - YouTube

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That's ONE house, and how do you know they didn't have a reason to carry out the search in that manner?

One of the companies I worked for had a hostage situation awhile back. When everyone was released, the police made them come out with their hands up. Then they had to lay down on the ground while the police searched them.

Do you know why these poor victims were treated that way?

And what exactly was the purpose of women being yanked out of their homes with children in their arms, having guns pointed in their face while they were being patted down and their homes being searched? THEY didn't fit any description of the 'terrorist', did they?

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I didn't see people being exactly yanked, nor guns in their faces. As for the pat downs, there was a bomber on the loose, and the other had a bomb strapped to his chest. It wasn't much of a leap to think he might strap one to another person to use as a weapon. There is also the fact he was a local person, and whether these were lone bombers was unknown. They could have had more people in the neighborhood harboring them and armed.

I listened to quite a few hours of the action on the scanners, when they were doing searches, including at night. They were getting tons of tips from people and following them up. This is likely the result of one of them.

Vylo said:

I listened to quite a few hours of the action on the scanners, when they were doing searches, including at night. They were getting tons of tips from people and following them up. This is likely the result of one of them.

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That's kinda what I was thinking but I wasn't sure. We have friends in the area who were locked down but never approached by police at all.


On a related note: Exigent circumstances...wouldn't a guy on the loose who had just thrown explosives at police officers be exigent circumstances?