Born fallen?

sammydee · Jun 7, 2007

Hi All.

I am an atheist but I'm genuinely interested in how religious people justify their faith. Here's a question I'd like to hear the answer to:

I think it's safe to assume that somewhere in the world a person will be born who lives and dies never even hearing of christianity and Jesus. It says in the bible that anyone who does not accept Jesus as their saviour is doomed to burn in hell for all eternity.

I see a paradox here. If God is all loving he would never let an innocent like this be punished far far out of proportion to their crime (indeed, what crime?!?). However, one of the main premises of Christianity is that anybody who does not believe in Jesus is doomed to burn in hell for all eternity.

How do christians explain this paradox?

Sam

bukz · Jun 7, 2007

Where is God?

MethodMan · Jun 7, 2007

No real paradox.

Read Romans 1. God has indeed revealed Himself to all so that no one has an excuse.

sammydee · Jun 7, 2007

Erm that doesn't really answer my question. I don't think God has ever revealed himself to me. At least, I don't remember ever seeing or talking to him. If you never heard of God or even saw a bible how would you know that Jesus had given his life for you?

Emmy · Jun 7, 2007

Dear sammydee. The Bible tells us that God makes provision, and when you really think about it, there are Missionaries, the Salvation Army, many Evangelists, and for those places which are really too far off the beaten track, God will make sure, that all know. You agree that God is Almighty, Omnipotent, Omniscient, God is everywhere, and God is Love. Does that sound like a lottery, only for some and not for others. No, sammydee, God loves All, Jesus God-Son died for All, and The Holy Spirit is on Earth, to teach and to guide all who want to return to our home, with our Father in Heaven. We have free will to choose our own eternity, either with God, or without God. Jesus told us that Outer Darkness is the place for those, who prefer to go their own way, God does NOT force us. All we have to do, REPENT, exchange our selfish and wilful nature, for a selflessly loving and caring one. Love God with all our Being, and treat each other, as we would like to be treated ourselves, in word and deed. Jesus, our Saviour will help and guide us, and we are given many years to become better and better. Born fallen, but chosen to live for ever with a loving Heavenly Father, and our Christian brothers and sisters. I say this humbly and with love, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.

sammydee · Jun 7, 2007

Yes I understand that, but you didn't answer my question either.

Missionaries didn't get to everybody who lives everywhere in the last 100 years to teach them the word of God. What about somebody who never hears about God? What happens to them?

aiki · Jun 7, 2007

Missionaries didn't get to everybody who lives everywhere in the last 100 years to teach them the word of God. What about somebody who never hears about God? What happens to them?

God is not revealed only in His Word. The Bible tell us that Creation itself speaks loudly of God so that no man can say, "I didn't know there was a God. " Of course, Creation doesn't teach us who God is, only that He is. To know the nature and character of God one must read the Bible. For those who have no access to the Bible and to the message of redemption that it has to share, God has a different standard by which He judges them than that He uses for those who do know. Nonetheless, He judges and punishes all those who, having some knowledge of Him, do not act positively on that knowledge and seek Him with their whole heart.

Peace to you.

sammydee · Jun 7, 2007

Does it say anywhere in the Bible that God has a different method of judging these people? Or is that your opinion? What do other people think?

Sam

calidog · Jun 7, 2007

I believe the bible tells us the fate of hell is for those who reject the truth, not for ignorance of the truth. But on the other hand the bible tells us that God has revealed Himself to us by His handiwork.

A common assumption is "those who have'nt heard the gospel message of Jesus Christ are doomed to eternal punishment".

My assessment of what I've read from the bible is we are all to be judged according to our knowledge of the truth, whether that knowledge came from others or from God Himself.

sammydee · Jun 7, 2007

Ok thanks for clearing that up for me. So if somebody never had access to the bible they would automatically be granted access to heaven have I got that right?

Ok so what about this. If God truly wanted everybody to believe in him, then why doesn't he prove his existence to me?

If I were to see some convincing evidence for God - for example, a miraculous event that was repeatable and scientifically tesatable, yet could not be explained by any current scientific theory and was clearly in violation of known laws of physics, I would seriously consider the christian God as a theory to explain that event.

If God truly wants to save me, why doesn't he show me that he exists?

sam

calidog · Jun 7, 2007

sammydee said:
Ok thanks for clearing that up for me. So if somebody never had access to the bible they would automatically be granted access to heaven have I got that right?

Whoa, hold on. Access to bible gets no-one eternal life, or even biblical knowledge in itself. Maybe if you read the following, this may say it better than I can. Subsitute "knowlege" for "light".

Joh 1:9 He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, yet the world did not know Him.
Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to the ones believing into His name,
Joh 1:13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and of truth.

The bible is clear that those who believe on the Son of God recieve eternal life.

The bible is also clear that those who have the "light" but reject it recieve eternal death (hell).

As for ignorance of the truth (for this is to assume God is unable to get the light to every individual) we do not have as clear an answer but we find that God judges fairly:

Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

dvd_holc · Jun 7, 2007

sammydee said:
Ok thanks for clearing that up for me. So if somebody never had access to the bible they would automatically be granted access to heaven have I got that right?

sammydee said:
Ok so what about this. If God truly wanted everybody to believe in him, then why doesn't he prove his existence to me?

If I were to see some convincing evidence for God - for example, a miraculous event that was repeatable and scientifically tesatable, yet could not be explained by any current scientific theory and was clearly in violation of known laws of physics, I would seriously consider the christian God as a theory to explain that event.

If God truly wants to save me, why doesn't he show me that he exists?

sam

First, we are born (created) fallen...we are all born in a world which is a mixture of evil and good. As babies, we lack learn knowledge and self control while having a natural instinct. A baby does not cry because it knows something is right but the child knows something is wrong. Likewise, the baby knows when the child has been relived Our parents and those around us are all corrupted through selfish passions that taint all knowledge of God. So then, we are all born into community with a communal awareness.

As Scripture says, "No one lives to himself and no one dies to himself." Also, God created them in His image.

In one sense, God kept the fullness of His being from being fully present because (like certain examples in the bible) God would have caused immediate judgment upon evil because of His purity of nature. However, God is not distant in another sense because God remains intimately attached from the point of Creation of the world and also by being its Ruler, being present through all things, and indwells in all things. So then, also God is in commune with all of creation...even though you are not convinced.

Also, the nature of the understanding of judgment of God is present in the faithfulness to the nature of good/evil which we are all born with. Paul wrote in Romans 2 that those who are remain committed (though they mess up on sometimes) good will receive everlasting life and those who are committed to evil will receive everlasting punishment by the gospel (rule) of Jesus Christ.

sammydee · Jun 7, 2007

dvd_holc said:
First, we are born (created) fallen...we are all born in a world which is a mixture of evil and good. As babies, we lack learn knowledge and self control while having a natural instinct. A baby does not cry because it knows something is right but the child knows something is wrong. Likewise, the baby knows when the child has been relived Our parents and those around us are all corrupted through selfish passions that taint all knowledge of God. So then, we are all born into community with a communal awareness.

As Scripture says, "No one lives to himself and no one dies to himself." Also, God created them in His image.

In one sense, God kept the fullness of His being from being fully present because (like certain examples in the bible) God would have caused immediate judgment upon evil because of His purity of nature. However, God is not distant in another sense because God remains intimately attached from the point of Creation of the world and also by being its Ruler, being present through all things, and indwells in all things. So then, also God is in commune with all of creation...even though you are not convinced.

Also, the nature of the understanding of judgment of God is present in the faithfulness to the nature of good/evil which we are all born with. Paul wrote in Romans 2 that those who are remain committed (though they mess up on sometimes) good will receive everlasting life and those who are committed to evil will receive everlasting punishment by the gospel (rule) of Jesus Christ.

Sorry I don't understand. What exactly are you saying here?

sammydee · Jun 7, 2007

calidog said:
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

So let me get this straight. If people never found out about Jesus or God, they are STILL punished? How, they are sent to Hell for a little bit and taken away again?

Why don't they go straight to heaven? Being ignorant, they haven't denied God, so what have they done wrong? How is it fair to punish them when they were unaware that they were even comitting a crime?

calidog · Jun 7, 2007

sammydee said:
Ok so what about this. If God truly wanted everybody to believe in him, then why doesn't he prove his existence to me?

If I were to see some convincing evidence for God - for example, a miraculous event that was repeatable and scientifically tesatable, yet could not be explained by any current scientific theory and was clearly in violation of known laws of physics, I would seriously consider the christian God as a theory to explain that event.

If God truly wants to save me, why doesn't he show me that he exists?

sam

Good question, and why doesnt He do that for all of us?

He tell us to first believe (take the first step) then He convinces us.

As for signs and wonders, I don't believe He will show us these. That's His decision:

Joh 4:48 Then Jesus said to him, Unless you see signs and miracles happen, you [people] never will believe (trust, have faith) at all.
Joh 4:49 The king's officer pleaded with Him, Sir, do come down at once before my little child is dead!
Joh 4:50 Jesus answered him, Go in peace; your son will live! And the man put his trust in what Jesus said and started home.
Joh 4:51 But even as he was on the road going down, his servants met him and reported, saying, Your son lives!
Joh 4:52 So he asked them at what time he had begun to get better. They said, Yesterday during the seventh hour (about one o'clock in the afternoon) the fever left him.
Joh 4:53 Then the father knew that it was at that very hour when Jesus had said to him, Your son will live. And he and his entire household believed (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Jesus).

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mat 12:38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, Teacher, we desire to see a sign or miracle from You [proving that You are what You claim to be].
Mat 12:39 But He replied to them, An evil and adulterous generation (a generation morally unfaithful to God) seeks and demands a sign; but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
Mat 12:40 For even as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. [Jonah 1:17.]

calidog · Jun 7, 2007

sammydee said:
So let me get this straight. If people never found out about Jesus or God, they are STILL punished? How, they are sent to Hell for a little bit and taken away again?

Why don't they go straight to heaven? Being ignorant, they haven't denied God, so what have they done wrong? How is it fair to punish them when they were unaware that they were even comitting a crime?

Like I said, God gives every one of us light (knowlege). We will be judged according to what we did with the light that is in us.

Joh 1:9 There it was--the true Light [was then] coming into the world [the genuine, perfect, steadfast Light] that illumines every person. [Isa. 49:6.]

sammydee · Jun 7, 2007

Yes I know that God doesn't show us all signs to prove his existence. I am asking WHY he doesn't.

It seems to me that if the only way to avoid hell is to accept Jesus, and God loves us all without boundary, he would want us all to go to heaven more than anything else, and so he would want us to accept Jesus more than anything else, right?

So why doesn't he show me proof!? I'm so confused!

Sam

sammydee · Jun 7, 2007

calidog said:
Like I said, God gives every one of us light (knowlege). We will be judged according to what we did with the light that is in us.

Joh 1:9 There it was--the true Light [was then] coming into the world [the genuine, perfect, steadfast Light] that illumines every person. [Isa. 49:6.]

I don't know what you mean by this light. I haven't seen it. I don't know what it is. And I haven't seen any proof or evidence that God exists. Why doesn't he show me some? Why doesn't he come to me in a dream or something?

Sam

calidog · Jun 7, 2007

sammydee said:
Yes I know that God doesn't show us all signs to prove his existence. I am asking WHY he doesn't.

Sam

Because signs and wonders won't convince you and give you the faith God wants from us.

Mat 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise, and they will show great signs and wonders so as to deceive and lead astray, if possible, even the elect (God's chosen ones).

calidog · Jun 7, 2007

sammydee said:
I don't know what you mean by this light. I haven't seen it. I don't know what it is. And I haven't seen any proof or evidence that God exists. Why doesn't he show me some? Why doesn't he come to me in a dream or something?

Sam

I would'nt discount that from happening. If that's what it'll take (only God knows) then that may happen. He is at work on every individual and He is drawing us to Him.

Joh 6:44 No one is able to come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me attracts and draws him and gives him the desire to come to Me, and [then] I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.

Notice Jesus said draw. This is not a sudden action, but a gradual action.

Some believe when they are a child, some when they are old, some not untill they are near death. We are all inherently stubborn.

Born fallen?

Member

Member

Legend

Member

Senior Veteran

Member

Regular Member

Member

Veteran

Member

Veteran

Senior Veteran

Member

Member

Veteran

Veteran

Member

Member

Veteran

Veteran

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency