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He was telling Nakdimon that he being a teacher of Israel should have known this. being a Pharisee, he believed in resurrection...No! You are going off into another aspect of what happens to Christians after they leave this earth.
Born again is about being given a human spirit so that our soul can function spiritually alive.
Born again is not only for the church age believer.
For Jesus was telling Nicodemus that he, as a Jew, needed to be born again!
Jesus was not telling Nicodemus how to become a Christian which only could happen after Jesus had ascended to heaven and was glorified.
Moses who never became the Bride of Christ (church) was born again. Born again!
Moses was able to become the man of God he became as a Jew who was made spiritually alive.
The difference?
God had His Spirit in the OT indwell the Temple. Now? For the Christian? The Holy Spirit indwells the believer's body!
But, that's another story. Being born again means simply to be given a human spirit to make our souls spiritually capable.
Before you were born again you were without a human spirit. You were spiritually dead until you were born again.
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thessalonians 5:23
Man who is not born again consists of only body and soul. No human spirit = spiritually dead.
grace and peace ..................
So what you're saying is that Nick should've known that God raises the dead.He was telling Nakdimon that he being a teacher of Israel should have known this. being a Pharisee, he believed in resurrection...
Read the entire passage and maybe you will understand...So what you're saying is that Nick should've known that God raises the dead.
So just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom 6:4
I unequivocally understand that we have life in Christ.Read the entire passage and maybe you will understand...
Again, that is not really what that passage is about...other than eternal life being part of it.I unequivocally understand that we have life in Christ.
We know that we are of God, ... And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; And because of Jesus, we now belong to the true God who gives eternal life. Keep yourselves from idols. 1 John 5:19-21
Again, whoever believes in him isn’t judged; whoever doesn’t believe in him is already judged, because they don’t believe in the name of God’s only Son. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:18-19Again, that is not really what that passage is about...other than eternal life being part of it.
Thanks for proving my point again...Again, whoever believes in him isn’t judged; whoever doesn’t believe in him is already judged, because they don’t believe in the name of God’s only Son. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:18-19
The point that in Christ all things are revealed...Thanks for proving my point again...
For this reason He says, “Awake, sleeper, And arise from the dead, And Christ will shine upon you and give you light.” Eph 5:14
This is a couple chapters from a book I wrote many years ago entitled "Foundational Teachings" based on the list found in Heb 6:1-3.
This material is about the "Baptisms" and refers to John 3 for base material.
Foundational Doctrines
f20 Baptism Into Christ
Hebrews 6:1-31 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection;not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead,and of eternal judgment.3 And this will we do, if God permit.
The word "baptize" is from the Greek word "baptizo." It comes from the root "bapto," meaning "to dip, sink, plunge, submerge, or cover wholly." The meaning of the word can be seen from its usage in Romans 6 and Colossians 2.
Romans 6
3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ
were baptized into his death?
4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:
that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father,
even so, we also should walk in newness of life.
The word "into" is key in these verses. The Greek word for "in" is "en," while the word for "into" is "eis." The meaning of these simple prepositions is crucial to the understanding of the concept of baptism. The word "in" means to be stationary inside a place or time. You are "in" a car, "in" a house, or "in" the 20th century. The word "into" carries with it the concept of movement. You begin at a point outside and move "into" a place or time. We are baptized (submerged) "into" Christ, water, and the Holy Spirit. The concept is that you begin being separate from and outside of the element. You then proceed from the point outside- "into" the element. Once fully submerged, you are considered one with the element. Upon emergence, you are a part of the element.
Look at the reference to Moses and the Jews as they left Egypt:
1 Corinthians 10
1 And I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, that all our fathers were under the cloud,
and all passed through the sea,
2 and all to (into) Moses were baptized in the cloud, and in the sea;
The word "to" in the phrase "to Moses" is the Greek "eis": which is "into." The People who were with Moses in the cloud were baptized "into" Moses. When they emerged from the cloud and the sea, they were one with him. They were considered equals with Moses. But the scripture goes on to say that even though they were identified with Moses, God was not pleased with some of them, and some were overthrown in the wilderness. But the point is (for this discussion) that when they entered the cloud, they were separate from Moses, while in the cloud they were baptized into Moses, and upon exit, they were one or identified with Moses.
Foundational Doctrines
f21 Teaching on Baptisms INTO
For some time, I have been studying certain passages from John (and elsewhere) which involve an understanding of the Greek. Specifically, the Greek prepositions "en" (in) and "eis" (into). In themselves, they are not particularly interesting. But when one considers some of the usages, some unusual ideas are brought forth. Take the famous passage in John 3:3-17, which I will not present in its' entirety for brevities' sake.
5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is
not able to enter into the reign of God;
..........
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born again;
.............
14 `And as Moses did *exalt* the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man
to be exhalted,
15 that every one who is believing into him may not perish, but may have eternal life,
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every
one who is believing into him may not perish, but may have eternal life.
17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the
world may be saved through him;
18 he who is believing into him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already,
because he hath not believed *into* the name of the only begotten Son of God.
I have changed the prepositions to their corrected form. Most notable, I think, is the famous verse 16: "every one who is believing into him may not perish, but may have eternal life. "The difference between these two words, "in" and "into," I think is important.
Strong’s entries:
Lexicon Greek
1519 1519 eis {ice}
a primary preposition; TDNT - 2:420,211; prep AV - into 573, to 281, unto 207, for 140, in 138, on 58,
toward 29, against 26, misc 321; 1773 1) into, unto, to, towards, for, among
Lexicon Greek
1722 1722 en {en}
a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication)
instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537);
TDNT - 2:537,233; prep AV - in 1874, by 141, with 134, among 117, at 112, on 46, through 37, misc 321; 2782 1)
in, by, with etc.
The primary difference is in motion. While studying Greek years ago, I remember a diagram of prepositions. There was a box with the prepositions arranged around it in their respective positions, creating a graphic representation of the words. The word "over" was placed over the box, the word "under" was placed under the box, etc.. The Greek word in (en) was placed stationary inside the box. No movement. As Strong’s definition above says: "denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e., a relation of rest..."
The word into (eis) was represented in the diagram by an arrow beginning at a point outside of the box, and proceeding to the inside of the box, stopping at the word "in." Again the idea being portrayed when the word "into" is used is one of _motion_. Moving or changing in position or state, or time. The understanding that I am coming to is somewhat different from the conventional.
For many years I have held that to "believe in" something means to mentally or spiritually accept or agree with a truth or to ascribe to an unseen reality in space or time that cannot be proven by ordinary, natural means. i.e., I believe in God, I believe in creation, I believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, and I still hold this understanding.
Yet, in reviewing the above information concerning the difference between "in" and "into," I am forced to reconsider some of the passages that I previously thought I knew the meaning.
I knew what it meant to believe "in" him, but what about to believe "into" him?
Looking back at the context of the passage in John 3 brought some insight.
Vs. 16 is part of a teaching by Jesus about being "born again." He goes on to say that this birth is one of the spirit, not the flesh. It is also a second birth, in that it is called being "born again." So this "new birth" of the spirit involves a change. A result of this change is that a person may now "enter into the reign of God." A second clue is in verse 8: "the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit." A person born of the spirit, or born again, can hear the voice of the Spirit or commune with God.
If we understand the context of the passage to be consistent throughout, then it is reasonable to think that believing "into" Him has something to do with our spirit being born again, by which we enter into the reign of God and are able to commune with the Spirit of God.
This brings us to verse 14,
14 `And as Moses did exalt the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be
exhalted,
15 that every one who is believing into him may not perish, but may have eternal life
Some revelation comes from studying these verses. If you recall the story of the serpents in the wilderness, you will remember that the people were plagued by serpents. (Num 21) God instructed Moses to construct a brazen serpent and to raise it above the people. When they were bitten, they could look upon the serpent and were "given life for it." It is significant that this wording was used. It does not say they were healed; it says they were given life. Youngs Literal translation is excellent:
Numbers 21:
9 "And Moses maketh a serpent of brass, and setteth it on the ensign, and it hath been,
if the serpent hath bitten any man, and he hath looked expectingly unto the serpent of brass--
he hath lived."
Note the word "ensign" or "standard." No mere "post" or "stick." The brazen serpent was placed on a vehicle of honor to be a glorious symbol that people rally around. Hence the Greek word for "exalt" in Jo 3:14.
The common understanding of John 3:14 is that the ensign is the cross. But a new understanding emerges when we remember that the new birth is not a result of the cross but of the resurrection!
1 Peter 1:
3 (KJS) Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to
his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of
Jesus Christ from the dead.
We are born again by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. In the type, the Jews believed into ("looked expectantly unto") the "exalted" brazen serpent, and were given life, we too "believe into" the "exalted" Jesus, and are given life. The "exalted" Jesus is the resurrected Jesus! Not the crucified Jesus up on the cross.
The new understanding is that there is a difference between a general "believe in Him" and supernatural "believe into Him." We have to believe that Jesus is the Christ, but this reveals a deeper understanding of what happens when we do. We believe into His "exaltation," and are born again, being raised up together with Him. This would change our understanding of the "brazen serpent" type. It was not the cross, but the resurrection that was pointed to by the brazen serpent. It is the resurrection that gives us life. The cross was not an "exaltation," the resurrection was! This in no way diminishes the importance of the cross or the tremendous sacrifice of our Lord. But it deepens our understanding of the spiritual mechanics of the operation of God in the provision of the new birth.
The best scripture to add to this is:
Ephesians 2:
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
Here we see Christ being raised up (as an ensign), wherein we “believe into the operation of God” (Col 2:15), and are quickened together with Him, and are made to sit with Him (entering the reign of God!) in heavenly places!
Look at Colossians 2:12.
Colossians 2:12 (KJS)
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him]
through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Doctrinally, this is referred to as Baptism into Christ.
Romans 6:
3 (KJS) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were
baptized into his death? {were: or, are}
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was
raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk
in newness of life.
1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJS)
For by one Spirit are *we all baptized into
one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether
[we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink
into one Spirit. {Gentiles: Gr. Greeks}
2 Corinthians 1:21 (KJS)
Now he which stablisheth us with you into Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God;
Galatians 2:16 (KJS)
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ,
even we have believed into Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ,
and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3:27 (KJS)
For as many of you as have been baptized into
Christ have put on Christ.
John 12:46 (KJS)
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever
believeth into me should not abide in darkness.
Romans 3:22 (KJS)
Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ into all and
upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
I think you have a good understanding of the matter. And I do think that many people are hesitant to suggest a different understanding for John 3:16, which is one of if not the most quoted verse from the Bible. I think this understanding changes the emphasis to the resurrection and life, at least when it comes to the new birth. When we believe into Christ we believe into the operation (energy) of God.Hi, in searching for a forum on John 3:16, believing "...in..." or "...into..." the Son, I came across your above comment regarding your thoughts on the matter, and I'd like to ask you why you may think Bible translators prefer to use "...in...", which in Greek would normally be stated as "...en...", and not "...eis...", as is what is found in the manuscripts.
This is particularly interesting, as in English grammar, the proper understanding of word usage after a verb — believes/believeth, "...pisteuo..." is a verb — is that it supports the action/movement of the verb... And clearly, believing is indicative of an action, which, in the case of someone being saved, defines the movement of this person from a position of being unsaved to a position of being saved. So, at least we can clearly see that movement is taking place, from being in one position (unsaved) and then moving to another position (saved).
This being the case, proper English grammar would require the use of the word "...into..."... Meaning, the person believing was moved "...into..." the position their believing brought them to.
This I think is just rudimentary common sense exegesis... That is further supported by other biblical scripture that clearly tells us that believers were called out of darkness "...INTO His marvelous light;..." (1 Pet. 2:9)... Not to reference the many verses that tell us that we who are born-again of God are now "...in Christ...".
Now I know that in English it is common to just say that something has been put "...in..." something else... The shoes have been put in the closet... The car has been parked in the garage... I've put milk in my coffee... But however we use this "...in...."... If it is related to the movement defined by a verb, then what we are really saying is that these things have been moved "...INTO..." the place stated.
Meaning... The "...in..." actually means "...into...".
This being clear... Why would obviously educate people not just use the properly related preposition?
And I'm bringing this up, because, as you kind of suggested, using the properly related preposition would cause people to actually read and understand what takes place upon being born-again, differently from what the majority thought/think.
Believing "...INTO..." Christ Jesus is not commonly understood when people think of believing "...IN..." Christ Jesus... And this seemingly innocuous matter is actually crucial in the matter of properly understanding our sanctification... Understanding that impacts how a believer approaches their sanctification.
Okay, I don't want to go on too long, so I'll end here... But I look forward to reading what you have to say on this matter.
Thanks.
JS
Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it.I think you have a good understanding of the matter. And I do think that many people are hesitant to suggest a different understanding for John 3:16, which is one of if not the most quoted verse from the Bible. I think this understanding changes the emphasis to the resurrection and life, at least when it comes to the new birth. When we believe into Christ we believe into the operation (energy) of God.
Colossians 2:12 KJV
12. Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him
through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
But from a functional aspect, does this understanding make any real difference in the outcome? I don't think so. But I do think there is power in knowing the actual wording. Having the new understanding will enhance your understanding of what it means to be born again, what happened to Him in the resurrection, and how you are connected to Him. You were "raised up together with Him" when you believed into the resurrection. More specifically when it comes to overcoming sin and the world, if you know WHO you are it will help you to know WHAT you are capable of. You will not just resign yourself to defeat. You will stand up into the new life, you put on the new man, you will overcome the world by faith. So I think this will both diagnose problems and empower you into that life of overcoming.
Thanks for the discussion.
Another one that repeats the connection between "believing into" Christ and eternal life.Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it.
But I'm concerned about the thought regarding "...But from a functional aspect, does this understanding make any real difference in the outcome? I don't think so...".
Here's why...
The salvation economy of God has two aspects... Judicial and organic... The first being our believing in[to] the Son by believe the gospel (faith comes by hearing it preached in faith), and then the second being that we need to "...work out..." this salvation that we have received/been brought into... Which is just the Person of Christ Jesus... All that He is and has done.
This second aspect requires our cooperating with the inward dwelling Spirit that we received upon being born-again of God... By the power we have by being in Christ Jesus.
But if the believer is clueless about what the reality of being in Christ is and the corresponding Christ as the Spirit in our regenerated spirit... Then this one will only be continually trying to better themselves in and through the works of their fallen old man, which, by God's wisdom, He left with us for a time, even after we are saved... Which isn't the way of God for us to be perfected in Christ... But is the reality of the one church that He declared He would build... And the reality of the Bride who has made herself ready for Him.
And I've personally witnessed this, in myself and others... Trying to follow Christ through natural human reasoning, and not by hearing (being led) by the Spirit in our regenerated spirit.
So I would say that it most certainly has everything to do with the "...functional aspect..." of a Christian's life/living... And since we will be judged by the Lord, not for righteousness (we were made righteous upon believing), but for our application of this righteousness we received, in our daily living during the time God has given us (for this purpose) on this earth.
It reminds me of the evil servant that hid the talent he received... We receive the Lord and therefore His righteousness... But what do we do with Him/it?
I've actually come to realize that this is the most important matter in these days... And is what separates the saved believers who overcome this world from those saved believers who don't.
Yet very few minister this matter.
JS
Another one that repeats the connection between "believing into" Christ and eternal life.
John 6:40 KJV
40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son,
and believeth on (eis - into) him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
And the phrase "which seeth the Son" reminds me again of John 3 which refers back to Numbers:
Numbers 21:
9 "And Moses maketh a serpent of brass, and setteth it on the ensign, and it hath been,
if the serpent hath bitten any man, and he hath looked expectingly unto the serpent of brass--
he hath lived."
Being born again means that the Paraclete takes up residence in a person's human spirit.He was telling Nakdimon that he being a teacher of Israel should have known this. being a Pharisee, he believed in resurrection...
Being born again means that the Paraclete takes up residence in a person's human spirit.
The problem with the "in" translation is that many take the verses to mean to mentally assent in Him. This renders faith to be nothing more than a mental act of agreement. It also subjects the process of salvation to a subjective mental exercise. I can hear satan now:Absolutely.
To look "...expectantly..." is to have the expectation of something related to your looking.
This is the reality of believing ...INTO... what you are looking at expectingly... You are giving yourself to — giving your being to — that which you are looking at holds your expectation (hope) within it... Which is in fact what the reality of faith is... And this is why we are told that we are saved by grace through faith.
The Greek word that is transliterated as "...eis..." has many definitions in Strong's... But none are defined in the word "...in...", unless it is used with the understanding of "...in..." meaning "...into..."... Which is not proper English grammar for preposition usage after a verb (believes/believeth).
Either an eternally saved Christian believer is positionally "...in Christ..."... Or is not positionally "...in Christ..."... It's one or the other.
And if we are positionally "...in Christ..."... Then we must ask... How did we come to be positioned "...in Christ..."?
There can only be one answer... We believed the gospel of God and were transferred/translated from darkness into light... From sin into the kingdom of God... And since Christ Jesus is both light and the kingdom of God... Then we must have believed into Christ Jesus.
I think the problem most people have is that they cannot, in their natural human reasoning, grasp how a person can believe into another person... And yet... When they consider that a married couple can become one... And agree with it... They are in fact agreeing with exactly what happens when we believe into Christ Jesus... We become one with Him.
And in the same way that a husband and wife start living their life according to being married — albeit normally according to natural man reasoning — when we have the realization that we are one with the Lord and He is one with us... Our living and being manifests/testifies to this, inwardly and outwardly.
But it can only take place when we have this realization... Through our actual experience of it... And this begins with clearly seeing that to believe "...in..." the Son... Must mean, and does mean... That we have believed "...into..." Him.
There is no other way.
And again... Unfortunately, this matter is not really being ministered to in wider Christianity... And so, most remain ignorant to, and outside of, the reality of being born of God.
Thanks for continuing the fellowship... And I'm going to create a separate thread for this topic as I believe it needs to be given more attention.
Amen.
The problem with the "in" translation is that many take the verses to mean to mentally assent in Him. This renders faith to be nothing more than a mental act of agreement. It also subjects the process of salvation to a subjective mental exercise. I can hear satan now:
"Do you really believe?"
"Do you believe enough?"
"Are you sure? Can you prove it intellectually?"
"Hath God said belief will save you?"
These and many other variations on the theme are recipe for doubt and fear.
They essentially place the strength of your conviction on your mind rather than your faith.
It even suggests that smart people with strong minds are more apt to be saved than others. Yet the opposite seems to be true.
The text and meaning of John 3 is directly related to the concept of believing "into Christ." That is the mechanics of being born again. It shows how the phrase "born again" is the context of the passage. We receive eternal life, the life of God, when we are born again.When did the topic of this thread change from "Born again" is not in the original text" to what is being discussed now?
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