Binding and Loosing

hedrick · Jun 4, 2011

ortho_cat said:
So if I forgive someone of their sin against me, then they are automatically forgiven in heaven for their sin?

I'm a bit concerned that this is turning rhetoric into law. Jesus says we forgive people because God forgives us, and if we don't, why should God forgive us? It is surely fitting for us to forgive, and something God expects of us. But I don't think we should read this as part of a script that God follows in order to compute who is accepted and who is rejected. Thus I believe the answer to your question is "Error 666. Illegal question. Required user action: Correct and resubmit."

But perhaps that's your point.

Fencerguy · Jun 8, 2011

Ishraqiyun said:
How do you reconcile the two? God being love and love not holding a record of wrongs and then that quote from Revelation? Does the story in revelation have a symbolic or allegorical meaning or do the two oppose each other? Revelation is a tough and highly symbolic book and I definitely can't claim to be an expert on it. I do know there was some major debate on it's inclusion in the canon as well. I would enjoy reading your method of reconciling the two though.

God is love and keeps no record of wrongs, but the Book of Life has only the names of the people who accepted the gift of God's love. It is not so much a record of wrongs as it is simply a record of those who have said "yes" to Christ, and those who have not...

Rick Otto · Jun 9, 2011

ortho_cat said:
So if I forgive someone of their sin against me, then they are automatically forgiven in heaven for their sin?

What does heaven have to do with it? Forgiven in heaven? If we can forgive each other, can't heaven?

brightmorningstar · Jun 9, 2011

The power and authority is Christ. One cant bind or loose anything that isnt in line with the truth of Christ.

ivebeenshown · Jun 9, 2011

brightmorningstar said:
The power and authority is Christ. One cant bind or loose anything that isnt in line with the truth of Christ.

Amen... Jesus wouldn't give Peter, or the assembly of Apostles the ability to bind and loose things on earth that would as a result bind and loose them in heaven unless they were infallible... because there is no imperfection in heaven.

razeontherock · Jun 9, 2011

So everyone with the keys is infallible. It's B & E for the rest of us!

ivebeenshown · Jun 9, 2011

razeontherock said:
So everyone with the keys is infallible. It's B & E for the rest of us!

Nobody said that.

razeontherock · Jun 9, 2011

Actually you did:

ivebeenshown said:
Jesus wouldn't give Peter, or the assembly of Apostles the ability to bind and loose things on earth that would as a result bind and loose them in heaven unless they were infallible

It's funny (ha-ha funny) to even suggest the Peter of Scripture was infallible. The whole point is rather that he was NOT. Which then raises the question, why was he given the keys? You used to know, and the fact that the laying on of hands is legitimate doesn't change that.

Lord Herdsetk · Jun 9, 2011

razeontherock said:
It's funny (ha-ha funny) to even suggest the Peter of Scripture was infallible. The whole point is rather that he was NOT. Which then raises the question, why was he given the keys? You used to know, and the fact that the laying on of hands is legitimate doesn't change that.

Kind of off topic (as if it hasn't already gone off rails), but didn't Paul himself scold Peter for some of his decisions or some things that Peter said? Peter was pretty rash, but he had a good heart. He was far from perfect though.

OrthodoxyUSA · Jun 9, 2011

None of them were perfect.

Forgive me...

ivebeenshown · Jun 9, 2011

razeontherock said:
Actually you did:

Actually, no, I didn't. Luckily you didn't start a topic based upon this poor assumption. Read again:

Amen... Jesus wouldn't give Peter, or the assembly of Apostles the ability to bind and loose things on earth that would as a result bind and loose them in heavenunless they were infallible... because there is no imperfection in heaven.

See it now? I apologize for not being apparently clear enough.

It's funny (ha-ha funny) to even suggest the Peter of Scripture was infallible. The whole point is rather that he was NOT. Which then raises the question, why was he given the keys? You used to know, and the fact that the laying on of hands is legitimate doesn't change that.

Of course Peter is not entirely infallible. You clearly do not understand the Catholic doctrine of infallibility.

ivebeenshown · Jun 9, 2011

Two Edged Sword said:
Yes. It is the power to retain or remit sins of another.

So then what happens when one person retains and another person remits for the same sin?

razeontherock · Jun 10, 2011

ivebeenshown said:
See it now? I apologize for not being apparently clear enough.

That clarified absolutely nothing.

razeontherock · Jun 10, 2011

ivebeenshown said:
So then what happens when one person retains and another person remits for the same sin?

That was so 1054

Fencerguy · Jun 10, 2011

razeontherock said:
It's funny (ha-ha funny) to even suggest the Peter of Scripture was infallible. The whole point is rather that he was NOT. Which then raises the question, why was he given the keys? You used to know, and the fact that the laying on of hands is legitimate doesn't change that.

OrthodoxyUSA said:
None of them were perfect.

Forgive me...

No need to forgive you OrthodoxyUSA....

Peter and the Apostles were not perfect men....Jesus was the only perfect Man.......but this realization does not make what they taught imperfect.
If there is no such thing as an infallible teacher, then nothing that we know of Scripture can be trusted.....The Holy Spirit guides imperfect men to deliver perfect/infallible teaching......

ivebeenshown · Jun 10, 2011

razeontherock said:
That clarified absolutely nothing.

I was not saying the APOSTLES were infallible, I was saying that the THINGS they bound and loosed were infallible, otherwise they could not be bound or loosed in heaven since heaven is perfect.

Is that clearer than matching red with red?

razeontherock · Jun 10, 2011

I'm just not sure how a thing can be infallible. Things are generally inanimate.

OrthodoxyUSA · Jun 11, 2011

Fencerguy said:
No need to forgive you OrthodoxyUSA....

Peter and the Apostles were not perfect men....Jesus was the only perfect Man.......but this realization does not make what they taught imperfect.
If there is no such thing as an infallible teacher, then nothing that we know of Scripture can be trusted.....The Holy Spirit guides imperfect men to deliver perfect/infallible teaching......

Sorry, but that doesn't work either. The NT scriptures are not perfect.

Forgive me..

Rick Otto · Jun 11, 2011

ivebeenshown said:
So then what happens when one person retains and another person remits for the same sin?

I can't even imagine how that could possibly happen unless you had a large beaurocratic hierarchy with bad communication habits.
How do you imagine sometyhing like that being possible?

sunlover1 · Jun 11, 2011

Two Edged Sword said:
Perfection is found in the confession, "Thou art the Christ the Son of the Living God".

We are known in this perfection if we love one another in the Holy Spirit, and forgive one another sins, that is the total meaning of the "binding and loosing". We all share in this as we confess Christ the Son of God.

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