Biblical support of free will

Christian_Victor · May 8, 2005

Well, wasn't it free will when Adam and Eve disobeyed God?

If they didn't have free will, then they wouldn't have disobeyed Him (since they would've been forced to obey Him).

There's also proof in other Biblical passages.

When Judas betrayed Jesus, it was free will. If he didn't have free will, he wouldn't have disobeyed Jesus since he would've been forced to obey Him.

Pretty confusing, but I hope you get it.

Radagast · May 11, 2005

LittleLion said:
If so, then the Bible is supposing an inconsistent system of beliefs.

Not quite. My reply to this is lengthy, and elsewhere. My favourite analogy is "light is waves" vs "light is particles," which looks like a contradiction, but isn't.

Christianity doesn't really make sense unless you accept both free will and predestination, because without free will "repent!" means nothing, and without predestination God isn't really God. See here for an 1800-year-old sermon on the subject.

I'm glad you agree that "foreknowledge or omniscience do not mean free will is impossible" because many Christian philosophers have felt the need to argue that.

Thanks for the reply,

-- Radagast

LittleLion · May 11, 2005

Radagast said:
Not quite. My reply to this is lengthy, and elsewhere. My favourite analogy is "light is waves" vs "light is particles," which looks like a contradiction, but isn't.

Christianity doesn't really make sense unless you accept both free will and predestination, because without free will "repent!" means nothing, and without predestination God isn't really God. See here for an 1800-year-old sermon on the subject.

I'm glad you agree that "foreknowledge or omniscience do not mean free will is impossible" because many Christian philosophers have felt the need to argue that.

Thanks for the reply,

-- Radagast

Did you see my formulation, in my post to Nightfire?

"We have free will but it can be overridden by God's will. God is merciful, just and loving, so injustice cannot be done to us by His interference with our free will."

See, it's nice.

Radagast · May 12, 2005

LittleLion said:
"We have free will but it can be overridden by God's will. God is merciful, just and loving, so injustice cannot be done to us by His interference with our free will."

I guess so... Not quite the words I would have chosen, but OK.

Add to that that God hates to override our free will, and will do so as seldom and as little as possible.

-- Radagast

LittleLion · May 12, 2005

Radagast said:
I guess so... Not quite the words I would have chosen, but OK.

Add to that that God hates to override our free will, and will do so as seldom and as little as possible.

-- Radagast

My formulation does say that God is loving and just -- which entails that God will not override our free will whimsically.

Radagast · May 12, 2005

LittleLion said:
My formulation does say that God is loving and just -- which entails that God will not override our free will whimsically.

Yes, but leaving us our free will does unleash evil on the world. As Dorothy Sayers said in the 1940s:

Why doesnt God smite this dictator dead? is a question a little remote from us. Why, madam, did He not strike you dumb and imbecile before you uttered that baseless and unkind slander the day before yesterday? Or me, before I behaved with such a cruel lack of consideration to that well-meaning friend? And why, sir, did He not cause your hand to rot off at the wrist before you signed your name to that dirty little bit of financial trickery? You did not quite mean that? But why not? Your misdeeds and mine are nonetheless repellant because our opportunities for doing damage are less spectacular than those of some other people.

God does not override our free will even in a "good cause." Because if He did, there would have been no point in creating us in the first place.

-- Radagast

Im_A · May 12, 2005

all i can say on this topic is, i believe God wants all to be saved, and God knows who the ones that will choose to follow. i figure something as monumental as the passion that Jesus by His own free-will, choose to go through with, because He wanted to fulfill the will of the Father, would mean that universally, God's Predestination was for all to be saved, hence the reason why Jesus came to this earth to live and die for His friends, and to rise again. but only a set amount will choose to follow God and only God knows that.

as for free-will tho, i think you go to the story of the Garden of Eden and find that clearly enough. they had two choices, they chose the wrong one.
just my two cents.

LittleLion · May 13, 2005

tattedsaint said:
all i can say on this topic is, i believe God wants all to be saved, and God knows who the ones that will choose to follow. i figure something as monumental as the passion that Jesus by His own free-will, choose to go through with, because He wanted to fulfill the will of the Father, would mean that universally, God's Predestination was for all to be saved, hence the reason why Jesus came to this earth to live and die for His friends, and to rise again. but only a set amount will choose to follow God and only God knows that.

If God WANTED, DESIRED everyone to be saved, then God would do so.
Or are you suggesting that God deisres something that does not come to pass?

as for free-will tho, i think you go to the story of the Garden of Eden and find that clearly enough. they had two choices, they chose the wrong one.
just my two cents.

You might have as well said about Adam and Eva, "Well, tough luck. They chose wrong."

LittleLion · May 13, 2005

Radagast,

Yes, but leaving us our free will does unleash evil on the world. As Dorothy Sayers said in the 1940s:

“‘Why doesn’t God smite this dictator dead?’ is a question a little remote from us. Why, madam, did He not strike you dumb and imbecile before you uttered that baseless and unkind slander the day before yesterday? Or me, before I behaved with such a cruel lack of consideration to that well-meaning friend? And why, sir, did He not cause your hand to rot off at the wrist before you signed your name to that dirty little bit of financial trickery? You did not quite mean that? But why not? Your misdeeds and mine are nonetheless repellant because our opportunities for doing damage are less spectacular than those of some other people.”

God does not override our free will even in a "good cause." Because if He did, there would have been no point in creating us in the first place.

If God would never intervene -- thus possibly overriding people's free will --, then God would not be an acting God (and off goes revelation).
Or?

It's an interesting question: Are God's interventions overriding people's free will, or not?

Nightfire · May 13, 2005

If God WANTED, DESIRED everyone to be saved, then God would do so.
Or are you suggesting that God deisres something that does not come to pass?

He did do so, through Christ. It has come to pass, but will only be final (visible) when Jesus returns to carry out the judgment. In the meantime, we have to decide on what side we stand on. God desires that all accept his grace (because it is meant for all), but that alone will not override anybody's will.

heron · May 13, 2005

Some believe that God predestined ALL of us.

He is not willing that any should perish.

He is being patient with you, wanting nobody to be lost and everybody to be brought to repentance.
II Peter 3:9

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For the Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Luke 20:35, 36

...Implies the Father's choice for all to be saved, but a possibility that some might get scattered.

II Peter 1 speaks of adding good character to your faith, so you don't lose sight of your forgiveness. It also speaks of election, which could mean several things. By Greek translation, it is:

[font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] picked out, chosen [/font]
1. [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] chosen by God, [/font]
  1. [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] to obtain salvation through Christ
    [/font]
2. [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God [/font]
  1. [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] the Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable [/font]
  2. [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians [/font]

These definitions do not close out the possibility that we were all called.

But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom

The purpose of giving several sides to this predestination concept is to show the varied scriptures and possibilities, and any reasoning attached to it. To say that only certain ones are elect can --not always will-- give nonbelievers a feeling that they are either excluded, or chosen against their will. The salvation plan is not about separating and dividing, but scooping up more people into God's arms, through mercy and grace.

In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
John 14:2,3

Radagast · May 16, 2005

LittleLion said:
... If God would never intervene -- thus possibly overriding people's free will --, then God would not be an acting God (and off goes revelation).

Actually, God chose ways of intervening that minimised overriding people's free will.

-- Radagast

chris_J_N · May 16, 2005

these are all intresting ideas but i think our freind here is asking the quistion. is God the author of our free will? not where does the bible say that we have free will?

i for one am very intrested in this and with all my research of the bible and such i haven't come across a verse that says this. however i know there is one so if anyone has a verse that says if God is the author of our free will i would love to hear it.

Radagast · May 16, 2005

Genesis 1:26-27:

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Free will is part of the "Image of God."

-- Radagast

chris_J_N · May 16, 2005

Radagast said:
Free will is part of the "Image of God."

-- Radagast

good answer

Monergism · Aug 26, 2005

Christian_Victor said:
Well, wasn't it free will when Adam and Eve disobeyed God?

They had a will to obey or disobey. They disobeyed, and thus, became slaves to sin. A slave has no freedom.

Christian_Victor said:
If they didn't have free will, then they wouldn't have disobeyed Him (since they would've been forced to obey Him).

Or it could have been foreordained.

Christian_Victor said:
There's also proof in other Biblical passages.

When Judas betrayed Jesus, it was free will. If he didn't have free will, he wouldn't have disobeyed Jesus since he would've been forced to obey Him.

Pretty confusing, but I hope you get it.

No, Judas was prophesied to betray Jesus Christ. This shows that Judas was already supposed to betray Him (Psalm 41:9; Zechariah 11:12, 13). That is not freedom.

I view that we have freedom, as far as what we can do, but that we have no choice in salvation. We are sinful, and we are bent on evil things, so we will only do what is evil.

seekingpurity047 · Aug 27, 2005

searle29678 said:
My definition of free will is your choice to either follow God and His commands to the best of your human ability or completely disregard Him and His commands. You have the ability to do both. I think that God knows what is best for us and he can intervene when He sees fit. You can make a decision and try your best to do something and I believe if it is against God's will, it's just not going to happen. Sometimes even the things we do that go against God's word are according to His overall plan. It's not something I completely understand, but I don't have to.....either way, we have decisions to make and we are allowed to make them. That is what I define as free will.

I am very sorry searle, but surely you must know the depravity of man. Man has no ability to do good, any good what so ever. Of course, you'll say like "What about the non-christian who gives millions of dollars to the poor" or something. I agree, that is good ACCORDING TO SOCIETY, but society is so corrupt and... not good in God's eyes, that they have it all wrong.

Romans 14:23b

Whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

Now, concerning the issue of God's sovereignty and our apparent free will. I would go so far as to say that, yes, we do have free will DEPENDING ON THE CIRCUMSTANCE. For instance, God does not want us to sin, but it's because we choose to sin that we are so depraved from Him, and cannot do good without His power to overcome sin. Somebody who was once a druggee makes a 180 degree turn and quits all that **** doesn't make him any better with God, for he has no relationship with Him.

God's sovereignty, of course, overrides our free will. He is sovereign over all things, and acts according to His will and His purpose. God isn't silent today, though some may claim otherwise. If God was silent today, then nothing would happen. There wouldn't be people getting saved in the middle east, or in china, there wouldn't be people proclaiming the hope they have in Jesus Christ. If God wasn't acting, everything would be at a full stop. Nothing would be happening. But God still acts, beyond scripture, and God will always act. Don't think that because scripture didn't cover the Middle Ages that God wasn't acting. For shame whoever said that God hasn't been acting in the past 1900 years.

Job 34:14-15

Job 34:14 If he should set his heart to it and gather to himself his spirit and his breath,

Job 34:15 all flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust.

If God stopped acting, everything would perish. This verse says more than its face value (it's also a good argument against nihilists). If God were to choose to stop acting, everything would be screwed. This world would be even worse than it already is.

Surely, God created man in His image, and as you said, this apparently implies free will to choose Him. However, does God sin? No. But, how is it that man sinned if he was in God's image? Think about that for a second.

Some will argue 1 Tim 2:4 or even 1 John 2:2, however, if it was God's sovereign will to save all men (and women too) then they would all be saved. But obviously, that isn't the case. If I see Hitler in heaven, I am going to cry a sea big enough to flood the earth.

Let me tell you a part of God's will, according to waht I have read in Scripture. It is that God wants to be exalted, and He will do whatever it takes to do so. His name will be exalted and known across the whole earth, whether people hate him or not. Read Exodus, I think it's pretty clear what God wants. God didn't have to set on Egypt 10 plagues, instead, around the seventh, Pharaoh submitted and volunteered to let the Israelites go. But God hardened his heart so that they may know that He is the LORD.

God is just in all of His acts, for there is no injustice in God. Is the clay to ask the potter "Why did you form me like this?" (Typical Romans 9 argument, look it up)

God makes sovereign decisions and it will always override our own.

To Christ's exaltation,

Randy

seekingpurity047 · Aug 27, 2005

By the way, Judas had no choice but to betray Jesus because he had to do it. It was the fulfillment of prophecy. I'm sure that Mary would have killed many pharisees if she really could, but God did not allow it.

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