Biblical support of free will

LittleLion · May 3, 2005

Biblical support of free will

Christians often say that free will is given by God.

I would like to know where exactly the Bible says so.

Thank you.

Serapha · May 3, 2005

LittleLion said:
Biblical support of free will

Christians often say that free will is given by God.

I would like to know where exactly the Bible says so.

Thank you.

Hi there!

for example....

John 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

It's a choice that is made by free will either to keep the commandments or not.

John 15:7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask
what you desire, and it shall be done for you."

It's a choice... whether ot "abide in Christ"

Genesis 2:16 "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every
tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat."

Man had a choce in what he wanted to eat because God gave him free will to choose.

~serapha~

Rafael · May 3, 2005

The Bible is full of instruction on how to live and purge one's life from sin so that they will be vessels of honor and of great use to God. If there was no choice, why bother with instructions?

2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the masters use, and prepared unto every good work.

Pr 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: 30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. 31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

De 30:19 "Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, that you and your descendants might live!

Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

AvgJoe · May 3, 2005

LittleLion said:
Biblical support of free will

Christians often say that free will is given by God.

I would like to know where exactly the Bible says so.

Thank you.

Genesis 2:15-17(NLT)
15) The LORD God placed the man in the Garden of Eden to tend and care for it. 16) But the LORD God gave him this warning: "You may freely eat any fruit in the garden 17) except fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat of its fruit, you will surely die."

A clear choice, given by God to man. Without freewill, one cannot make a choice.

2 Corinthians 5:10(NLT)
For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in our bodies.

I stand to be corrected, but it seems to me that it would be unjust for us to be judged, "for the good or evil we have done in our bodies," if we were not the ones who chose to do the good or evil.

Nightfire · May 5, 2005

The very call to repentance appeals to free will. My favourite verse concerning that freedom:

Deut. 30:19-20
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life...

Joshua 24 is also a powerful chapter. Thank you Rafael! Israel chose to serve God even though they were plainly told they were unable to! (v.19).

Radagast · May 5, 2005

Nightfire said:
The very call to repentance appeals to free will...

Exactly! An 1800 year old sermon said something similar...

-- Radagast

LittleLion · May 5, 2005

Serapha,

John 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

It's a choice that is made by free will either to keep the commandments or not.

I see no declaration of free will in the verse you quoted.

John 15:7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask
what you desire, and it shall be done for you."

It's a choice... whether ot "abide in Christ"

Same as above: I see no declaration of free will in this verse.

It is an "If x, then y" situation; not one of free will.

Genesis 2:16 "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every
tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat."

Man had a choce in what he wanted to eat because God gave him free will to choose.

... and the next verse says ...

* * *

Rafael,

The Bible is full of instruction on how to live and purge one's life from sin so that they will be vessels of honor and of great use to God. If there was no choice, why bother with instructions?

That there exists choice does not automatically mean that there also exists free will.

2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.

Pr 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: 30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. 31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

De 30:19 "Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, that you and your descendants might live!

Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Again, I see no declaration of free will in these verses. Only situations of "If x, then y".

* * *

AvgJoe,

Genesis 2:15-17(NLT)
15) The LORD God placed the man in the Garden of Eden to tend and care for it. 16) But the LORD God gave him this warning: "You may freely eat any fruit in the garden 17) except fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat of its fruit, you will surely die."

A clear choice, given by God to man. Without freewill, one cannot make a choice.

Surely, without free will one cannot make a choice. But that there exists choice does not mean that there exists free will.
Free will is only infered in the verse you quoted above; whether the inference is valid, I am not convinced.

2 Corinthians 5:10(NLT)
For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in our bodies.

I stand to be corrected, but it seems to me that it would be unjust for us to be judged, "for the good or evil we have done in our bodies," if we were not the ones who chose to do the good or evil.

Good point. But free will is still only an inference here. I would like a direct statement of it.

* * *

Nightfire,

The very call to repentance appeals to free will. My favourite verse concerning that freedom:
Deut. 30:19-20
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life...

God seems to favorize a certain option. Trying to influence the way we would apply our free will?

LegomasterJC · May 5, 2005

God knows which way is better and tells us that way so that we may draw nearer to Him. (That is the better thing)
But I do not think that it states it exactly like "God gave man Free Will"
Just curious... Do you disagree that we have free will?
Free will does not mean that you do not recieve the consiquences for what you choose. Perhaps that is why the Bible doesn't say it like that... so that there is no misconception that We can do whatever we want without our just rewards.

AvgJoe · May 5, 2005

LittleLion said:
Surely, without free will one cannot make a choice. But that there exists choice does not mean that there exists free will.

Unless my understanding is flawed, these two statements are contradictory to each other. Please clarify your meaning.

AdamA · May 6, 2005

AvgJoe said:
Unless my understanding is flawed, these two statements are contradictory to each other. Please clarify your meaning.

Easy: there is no Biblical "proof" of free will. Free will is a very icky term. In fact, there is no way we, as humans, can have free will. That implies that every choice we make is our own merit. No, it is not of our own merit. You may think that that implies that it isn't a choice... I don't know how you want to view it.

Everyone has different thoughts on the issue. Since we are predestined, God has always had plans in store for us. There is no way we could come to God without his help. I believe we have some choices, in the end sin is our fault and righteousness will be rewarded. But do we really have free will? Well, we have the freedom to make certain choices, of course. But free will is such a broad statement. If someone were to ask me directly if we had "free will" I wouldn't say yes. I'd explain my views.

I'm aware this sounds sketchy and vague. It is because, honestly, I don't have a grasp of the issue and I don't believe I nor anyone ever truly will. I'll just accept that I am at fault for my actions and that God helped me to come to him.

In Ephesians 1:
In love 5he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
....11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,....

Adoniram · May 6, 2005

LittleLion said:
God seems to favorize a certain option. Trying to influence the way we would apply our free will?

Duuuh!!!

Of course God tries to influence our decision. He knows and wants what is best for us. And He wants to give us eternal life. He loves us so much that he sent his Son to take the punishment for our sins. All he asks is that we repent of our sins and trust in Jesus to do the rest.

But the devil tries to influence our decision also. He makes sin seem sooo pleasurable. He tries to make us feel that it is OK to do whatever we feel like, whenever we feel like it, without fear of consequences. He tries to make us feel like we don't need God.

The problem with that is that for every action there a reaction. It's a law of physics, and a fact of life. Every choice we make has a consequence. Every decision we make affects someone or something. Whether it's ourselves, a friend or relative, an enemy, or something else. And I would imagine that almost every decision we make is made under the influence of someone or something. There is always some inducement to make us choose one way or the other. Some decisions are clear and easy to make, others not so much.

Now here's the kicker. The choices we make have consequences not only in this life, but in the afterlife. God promises eternal life to those who make the choice to follow Jesus. The devil promises short-term pleasures to those who choose to follow their own whims but he can't promise eternal life.

Having said that, I can promise you that at no time ever has God forced anyone to follow him. Not ever. The decision is completely ours to make.

But does he want to influence your decision? Sure he does. He knows that the eternal rewards are far greater than any earthly pleasures you may experience.

Radagast · May 6, 2005

AdamA said:
In fact, there is no way we, as humans, can have free will.

I beg to differ. The Bible supports both free will and predestination.

-- Radagast

Nightfire · May 6, 2005

Littleion said:
God seems to favorize a certain option. Trying to influence the way we would apply our free will?

Certainly. God knows the limitations of our freedom, and the consequences of the liberties we take.

Rosseau said "man is born free and is everywhere in chains". We are limited all around us. "Freedom" depends on our experience of reality, and how we perceive the world affects our freedom.

John 8:31-36
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"

Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

LittleLion · May 6, 2005

AvgJoe,

Surely, without free will one cannot make a choice. But that there exists choice does not mean that there exists free will.

Click to expand...

Unless my understanding is flawed, these two statements are contradictory to each other. Please clarify your meaning.

They are not contradictory.

A robot, programmed to count only red dots on the screen will count only the red ones, even though there are also green and blue and white ones, for example. Options exist (red, gree, blue, and white dots). But the free will to count the green ones and not the red ones does not exist, as the robot is programmed to count only the red ones.

(We could argue whether counting only the red dots is a matter of choice. If an entity can choose to either count the red dots, or the green ones, or the white ones, then this means they se them as valid options. A programmed entity seems only ONE option as valid, by default. This doesn't qualify as deciding and choosing.)

An entity with free will (and thus, no programme), will choose to count any of the dots, not just some particular ones.

The existence of options does not automatically mean that there is also free will.

* * *

AdamA,

Easy: there is no Biblical "proof" of free will.

Oh how I would love to see Christians meeting on this question!!

Some say there is biblical proof, some say there isn't.

Everyone has different thoughts on ...

How come that everyone has different thoughts on this?

* * *

Radagast,

In fact, there is no way we, as humans, can have free will.

Click to expand...

I beg to differ. The Bible supports both free will and predestination.

If so, then the Bible is supposing an inconsistent system of beliefs.
I dread to think of the vehement consequences of such inconsistency.

Nightfire · May 6, 2005

Oh how I would love to see Christians meeting on this question!!

Some say there is biblical proof, some say there isn't.

The problem is with the word "proof". There is Biblical support for free will, and God certainly based his words on our exercizing whatever freedom we have. Even when the world leaves us no choices, God is always an option -we find our freedom in Him.

We look through a single line of actions disappearing into the past, and that's all we see. It's only if we project what history looks like into the future that we come up with these problems. That's why free will is an expression of faith: we have no evidence for it, but our present suggests a variety of ways to approach any given subject. God doesn't treat my apparent will as an illusion, and neither will I.

Radagast said:
Radagast said:

I beg to differ. The Bible supports both free will and predestination.

Click to expand...

If so, then the Bible is supposing an inconsistent system of beliefs.
I dread to think of the vehement consequences of such inconsistency.

Radagast is right: both beliefs can be observed in the Bible. And that is precisely because it is consistent. Christians have been trying to understand from day 1 how God can have (what would seem from our perspective) foreknowledge, while simultaneously allowing people to have their own say.

The problem is that we can't keep the two in our minds simultaneously, but that doesn't mean God can't either. His knowledge is not limited to time, and our actions aren't limited to his knowledge (because we don't know what He knows). It's not such a mystery actually. God already told us who was chosen: Christ. How we come into him has very little to do with how we fit into history.

searle29678 · May 6, 2005

Without using verses at all my "proof" that God gave us free will is that there is a Bible. God could have created robot-type creatures that followed Him at his command without a choice and needed no instruction from Him. Instead, we have the Bible full of God's commands for His people. He wouldn't have to command us if we didn't have free will, we would do it anyway because he programmed us that way.

AdamA · May 6, 2005

There is one big problem...

The problem is we are trying to apply a human concept to understand how God works. We say free will. Do we truly have complete free will if you follow what the Bible says? I just think free will is a far too all-encompassing term to use. That is giving us too much credit. But we do have choice.

As Ephesians and Romans discusses, I believe in the total depravity of man. We are so hopeless and lost. It is only by God's guidance and choosing for us to make good decisions that we make any good decisions at all AND that we come to him. I don't view it as a black and white, or that we come to God and that is it. I view it as God guides us to him. We are too hopeless to come to him on our own, so he has to help us. He doesn't force us around like robots. We certainly are at fault for our sin and we are well rewarded for our righteousness, and we make decisions. The incredibly powerful term "free will" gives us the credit for coming to him, and I don't see it that way.

I think we have to define free will before much of an in-depth discussion is made. Perhaps in the Theology forum?

LittleLion · May 6, 2005

Nightfire,

Radagast is right: both beliefs can be observed in the Bible. And that is precisely because it is consistent.

No. Are yous aying we both have free will and we don't?

Then the problem is that of exactness of formulation.
"We have free will but it can be overridden by God's will. God is merciful, just and loving, so injustice cannot be done to us by His interference with our free will."

Why is logical formalization and exactness looked down upon ...

Christians have been trying to understand from day 1 how God can have (what would seem from our perspective) foreknowledge, while simultaneously allowing people to have their own say.

Foreknowledge or omniscience do not mean free will is impossible.
If foreknowledge and omniscience meant free will is impossible, then free will would mean that under necessary conditions C, phenomeon P can either happen or not. Which is total nonsense.

The problem is that we can't keep the two in our minds simultaneously, but that doesn't mean God can't either. His knowledge is not limited to time, and our actions aren't limited to his knowledge (because we don't know what He knows). It's not such a mystery actually.

Of course it's not such a mystery, and you needn't add patch-ups. It can neatly be formalized with logic -- "We have free will but it can be overridden by God's will. God is merciful, just and loving, so injustice cannot be done to us by His interference with our free will." See, it's nice.

* * *

searle2967,

Without using verses at all my "proof" that God gave us free will is that there is a Bible. God could have created robot-type creatures that followed Him at his command without a choice and needed no instruction from Him. Instead, we have the Bible full of God's commands for His people. He wouldn't have to command us if we didn't have free will, we would do it anyway because he programmed us that way.

Well, the problem with free will is that it is sometimes supposed by some people that having free will also includes being able to provide one's options to choose from. That would be omnipotence though, not free will.

I like your line of approach though.

searle29678 · May 6, 2005

My definition of free will is your choice to either follow God and His commands to the best of your human ability or completely disregard Him and His commands. You have the ability to do both. I think that God knows what is best for us and he can intervene when He sees fit. You can make a decision and try your best to do something and I believe if it is against God's will, it's just not going to happen. Sometimes even the things we do that go against God's word are according to His overall plan. It's not something I completely understand, but I don't have to.....either way, we have decisions to make and we are allowed to make them. That is what I define as free will.

AvgJoe · May 6, 2005

LittleLion said:
They are not contradictory.

Got it. Thanks for the clarification.

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