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Bible: by whose authority?

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Chickapee

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The bible is full of contradictions and historical inaccuracies. Hence it is not inerrant.

Strange Horatio you think like that ?

I find it was always my way of thinking that made it seem full of contradictions and inaccuracies in times past ,

but when digging deeper into the ''hidden '' name meanings and such and by the Grace of God and His Spirit leading

found much proof and comfort , in the pieces that fit to a T ,

Paul confirms so much of what Jesus taught

and goes on into much details

and the 4 angels /messengers, witnesses /gospels minnister to ,

I am one who is simply amazed at Gods Wisdom in it all ..


so we are on two diffent ends of it now are we not ?
I thank God for all He has graciously given us already

much peace in Jesus name . C
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I'm personally attached to the Gospel of Saint Matthew but I will admit I love the Gospel of Saint John too.
Matthew is a very Jewish/Hebreaic Gospel.

For example the word "parousia" and "trumpet" only occur in his gospel.

Matthew 24:3 He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what the Sign of the Thy ParousiaV <3952>, and of the together-finish of the Age?'

"Parousia" mentioned 24 Times only 4 times in Gospels all in Matt 24

parousiaV <3952> Mentioned 6 times. Matt 24:3; Phil 1:26; 2 Thess 2:1,8; James 5:7; 2 Peter 3:4

Parousia <3952> Mentioned 15 times. Matt 24:27, 37, 39; 1 Corin 15:23, 16:17; 2 Corin 7:6,7, 10:10; Phil 2:12; 1 Thess 2:19, 3:13, 5:23; 2 Thess 2:9; James 5:8, 1 John 2:28

parousian <3952> Mentioned 3 Times 1 thess 4:15; 2 Peter 1:16; 2 Peter 3:12
 
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TimRout

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When we say that the Bible is the verbally inspired Word of God as originally given, we neither suggest that God dictated its contents verbatim, nor that He vocalized every word contained therein. Rather, we merely assert that the content of the canon (as previously defined) was recorded by the human authors with utter perfection, such that the end product (the autographa) were precisely as God intended. So YES...even when Paul says things like, "Now concerning the betrothed: I have no command from the Lord, but I give my judgment as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy" [1 Corinthians 7:25/ESV], he is speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and is writing fully authoritative Scripture. The fact that Paul presents his instruction as advice rather than a commandment is a matter for hermeneutic discernment, not renunciatory rhetoric.
 
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TimRout

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Interesting thoughts.

It seems, however, that you have (at best) built a case against certain translations of the Bible and not against the autographs themselves. How does your presentation impact the doctrine of inerrancy?
 
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wayseer

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I return to the ininial post as I note PetraFan007 has not returned to tell us if we have given him something 'real and tangible'. With some intrepidation I will try.

First, the Bible which contains the 66 books is not the only Bible. I have a Bible which contains the Apocrypha and additional Wisdom books. I also have a Gnostic Bible.

I raise this little issue because what you might mean is what is known as the Bibical 'canon' - but even here there can be an argument. It appears that the present canon was accepted by a few prominient and assorted priests, bishops, academics etc, Irenaeus, Origen, Athanasius to name a few in the 2nd and 3rd C. But it appears that the canon was formalised somewhere around the time 393 - 419, around the time of the Councils of Carthage. So much for the historic aspects.

Second - the matter of a canon automatically raises the ogre of 'authority', or using that much maligned word, orthodoxy. Orthodoxy means nothing more than something like a 'body of opinion' - a conscenus if you will. This 'conscensus' has achieve the status of 'authority' because it has been tested over time and generally found to hold good. This 'authority' has become formalised into something we call creeds - that which defines the Faith.

Third - the thing with orthodoxy is its inherent resistence to change - which is its purpose. To move the orthodox takes lots of effort and many years of work and occasionally one may hear the doors creaking open to allow a little refreshing air circulate throught the inner sanctum. Which is good - we really don't need a received orthodoxy that blows about like a reed in the wind - otherwise it would become anything we wanted it to be and the whole idea of conscensus would distinigrate.

Fourth - Orthodoxy is not the end of the matter as you seem to think - which is somewhat understandable given some of the things attributed to its cause in the past. But, as you may note, orthodoxy has not stopped people doing what they do best, thinking. Some of the greatest literature is not contained in the Bible. The writings of such as Teresa of Avila and Francis of Assisi, to name but two, are examples of literature that has achieved a conscensus that such work not only inspires but imparts an initimate knowledge of God.

Fifth - you can make your own call. You are demonstrating this aspect by asking your question - you are free to make your own choice. No one has to accept the Tradition as we have it today. In fact, I suggest most of us don't. Just take a tour around these boards and you will note a plethora of scriptual opinions. Which brings me to the next point.

Sixth - Don't expect easy, 'ready to go' answers. We are not a patient lot down here, on Earth. We demand instant answers. Easy answers aren't all that easy as it turns out. Frustration is more our lot - demanding quick fixes and then being handed a length of rope that seems to stretch to the horizon. Not a good look for the citizenry of the 21st Century. It's more like, hurry up and wait.

Finally - Could you be comfortable with not knowing? What if there are no ready cut answers? Perhaps there is no black and white - just a sea of grey. Could you live with that?

Recommendation - Read 'The Cloud of Unknowing'.

... and be more gentle with yourself. Your questions are ageless - you are not alone.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Innerancy does not hold up to strict scrutiny. On the other hand, the Bible is not "chock full of errors" either. The bible is more error free than Microsoft Windows. ;-)
Now I just need to decide whether to watch for the "day" or "hour"

NASB) Matthew 24:42 "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.

NKJV) Matthew 24:42 "Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.
 
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SummaScriptura

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LittleLamb is making a good point. The word Jesus used is purposely ambiguous it seems to me, and can be translated as either day or hour. That's why the two translations are both right yet different. We have no ambiguous time measurement in English, or do we? I guess, day and hour have shades of meaning other than measurable time spans though...

Zstar, since you sound like you don't think there is any ambiguity in the passage, what is it you think He means?

By the way, LittleLamb, you probably realized this when you posted it, but you realize that is not a good example of an incongruity in scripture, which is what we were talking about, right? Ambiguity is one thing but incongruity is something else entirely.
 
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sunlover1

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That's awesome. I often look to the jewish interpretations of idioms
and historical subjects.

The Word of God is Jesus yes, and the Word of God is Scripture.
I dont seperate Him from His Words anyhow.

I personally wouldnt call it Scripture if someone were to do so.
Matthew, Mark, .. were all first hand eyewitness accounts.
The other, pauline epistles.. Paul was inspired, chosen by God
to teach from His (God's) heart. Jesus did it in a very spectacular
way. Im sure you'd agree.


How bout test it and see.

Jesus said, "It is written", when He encountered
temtation. It's no surprise that the enemy would try
to make you have doubts about the Word of God.

See how Jesus is described here in Rev 2:
12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write;
These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=47111615#_ftn1

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword,
piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow,
and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=47111615#_ftn1

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of Godhttp://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=47111615#_ftn1 ...
It goes on to say that the devil comes because OF the Word.

Great thread, wonderful responses.
Thank you for the blessing.
sunlover
http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=47111615#_ftnref1




http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=47111615#_ftnref1


http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=47111615#_ftnref1
 
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Chickapee

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Great post and Point sista Sun !

Made me think ! a wowza moment !
thanks to all for sharing whats in our hearts

Peace .. C
 
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sunlover1

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Great post and Point sista Sun !

Made me think ! a wowza moment !
thanks to all for sharing whats in our hearts

Peace .. C

Thank you ma'am!
Great to see you Chica
I agree, very cool thread so far.

Hope all is going well for you and yours.
sunlover
 
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BigNorsk

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I don't know why you would think God cannot use a prophet to write scripture today. The canon has always been closed since the earliest scripture writings. Even the Pentateuch says not to add to God's word. Yet God has always been able to use a prophet to write God breathed scripture.

There have been times when God has chosen not to do any additional scripture. For instance we see in the intertestemantal time that the Spirit left, and there were no prophets to write scripture.

Then we have the New Testament writers.

Now we have been in a period of time where again, God has not chosen to write scripture. That is not to say we do not receive God's word. If a pastor speaks one can say he hears God's word through the pastor, if an author writes one can say he read's God word through the writer. But, that is not to put them on the same level of authority as scripture. We are told to use scripture to judge what is being said. What is said is subject to scripture.

Now there are many who claim to have new revelations from the Holy Spirit. Well, first, we know a couple of things. If it conflicts with scripture it is wrong, we also know that the revelations are not necessary, that scripture is sufficient. So there is a framework in which to receive them.

Now the thing is, show one writing claimed to be scripture since the New Testament times that is not in conflict with scripture? There isn't one that I am aware. And that writing would need to be written by a prophet, not a false prophet but someone who passes the test that if they say they speak for God, it is correct, and correct every time.

One thing we do not see is an example where a prophet is recognized just by a few of God's people at the time and this person writes scripture. Prophets who are chosen to write scripture have been generally recognized as prophets. That doesn't mean they weren't persecuted, that doesn't mean they weren't killed, it doesn't mean that people followed them, yet they were recognized as such.

Who has come along since the New Testament writers who is so recognized?

So while the canon is indeed open as far as God could indeed still breath scripture, we don't jump at every self proclaimed prophets gust of wind to be tossed about by conflicting revelations. We now have a very strong foundation on which our faith is built. To add would be an extraordinary thing one which only God could do.

Marv
 
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SummaScriptura

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I agree with your explanation. I wish I'd said that!

I would modify it on two points.

One, to elaborate on something that you imply, the "canon" of scripture is determined by God, not Church council. So the body of what God recognizes as scripture may not be identical with that recognized by this or that council.

Two, I believe scriptures written by other than prophets have made it into the recognized canon, Esther comes to mind. Also, I believe the terms "intertestamental" and "the silent years" referring to the time after Malachi and before Christ are polemical and perjorative.

So, I make allowance for God adding to the Writings during that period.
 
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