Bible and the history

PetriFB · Jul 8, 2009

We can often read and hear how some researchers doubt the historicity of events mentioned in the Bible. This is especially true as comes to the initial accounts of the Fall, the Flood, the tower of Babel, and miracles that appear in the Gospels. These are issues that researchers regard as unreliable. They may deem them only legends and think that those accounts are not worth taking seriously.

We are going to study this difficult issue by looking at many examples. This study has been directed especially to people who sincerely want to study this area and struggle with this issue. In other words, it has been targeted at persons who want to know whether the events mentioned in the Bible are really historically correct.

The initial history of the Bible and mankind, archaeology

marktheblake · Jul 27, 2009

This looks interesting, but haven't the time to read through all of this tonight. I will read it later.

At a glance you may well be interested in the findings by Colin J Humphries in "Miracles of Exodus: A Scientist's Discovery of the Extraordinary Natural Causes of the Biblical Stories"

Amongst other things he retraces the route of the Exodus, using the book of Exodus as his guide, known trade routes (that are unchanged)and local Bedouin traditions. The entire book is very interesting and I think compliments the work you are doing here.

marktheblake · Sep 5, 2009

Of course people with opposing views to the biblical record are going to say the archaeological record is in conflict. That argument only has any merit if the supporters of the biblical record have no explanation from their perspective, and they have.

marlowe007 · Sep 6, 2009

I believe that the basic thrust of the Exodus stories are true, but there are certainly exaggerations. If most of the Egyptian army drowned, you'd think such an event would be mentioned in the Egyptian records. But there is no mention, and although Pharaohs often invented history, most of Egypt's historical texts have been verified.

EnemyPartyII · Sep 19, 2009

marlowe007 said:
I believe that the basic thrust of the Exodus stories are true, but there are certainly exaggerations. If most of the Egyptian army drowned, you'd think such an event would be mentioned in the Egyptian records. But there is no mention, and although Pharaohs often invented history, most of Egypt's historical texts have been verified.

Quite so.

I would further contend that EVERYTHING in Genesis is allegorical and/or the result of oral transmission of ancient myths. Its not difficult to see how many of the events in it stem from the traditions of other people in the region, or are religious explanations for mundane, yet at the time, unexplainable events.

ittarter · Sep 21, 2009

PetriFB said:
We can often read and hear how some researchers doubt the historicity of events mentioned in the Bible. This is especially true as comes to the initial accounts of the Fall, the Flood, the tower of Babel, and miracles that appear in the Gospels. These are issues that researchers regard as unreliable. They may deem them only legends and think that those accounts are not worth taking seriously.

The key word in the OP's first statement is "accounts."

While certain "events" may or may not be confirmed by the archaeological record or corroborated by other historical documents -- the latter being of much more practical use -- the biblical accounts are highly fictionalized. By this I mean, there are many things that take place which are written, not in the style of official historiographical records, but rather in the style of literary narrative.

While historical events obviously undergird many of the stories of the Bible -- such as the flood, the exodus from Egypt, the invasion of Palestine, and the ascent of the monarchy -- one can hardly argue from this that the Bible constitutes a historical document. It was clearly intended to communicate the traditions of the ancient Jewish peoples and preserve the integrity of those traditions to a greater degree than a merely oral account might.

It is our modern priority of "scientifically validated history" which we anachronistically apply to the ancient writers and thinkers, supposing that they must have had the same interest in preserving word-for-word conversations, confirming that an event is historical by the use of multiple independent sources and then writing tenaciously and reservedly on the subject, and so forth. In reality, there is no basis that the ancients had any such priority in their writing, and we wrong them when we attempt to divulge specific historical "facts" from their literary works.

Meeker · Sep 22, 2009

The only historical event which I feel I absolutely need to know is Jesus died on the cross for us. Without that peice of history, all other history wouldn't matter.

EnemyPartyII · Sep 22, 2009

Meeker said:
The only historical event which I feel I absolutely need to know is Jesus died on the cross for us. Without that peice of history, all other history wouldn't matter.

QFT

ebia · Sep 22, 2009

Meeker said:
The only historical event which I feel I absolutely need to know is Jesus died on the cross for us. Without that peice of history, all other history wouldn't matter.

Resurrection is kind of important too.

ebia · Sep 22, 2009

PetriFB said:
They may deem them only legends and think that those accounts are not worth taking seriously.

"legends" isn't the correct word, but leaving that aside the real problem in that sentence is the word only.

The idea that factual texts are somehow 'true' while symbols, myths and metaphors are only figurative and aren't to be taken seriously is a modernist lie that Christians must not buy into.

Myth, symbol and metaphor is the appropriate medium for talking about supreme truth - the phrase "... is just a metaphor" or "... is just a myth" cannot be allowed to stand unchallenged.

The way to address a modernist world that says "Genesis [1-11] is just myth" is not to buy into the enlightenment lie and try to prove it is factual history, but to show that myth is actually proper form for talking about the subject matter in question, and that Genesis 1-11 is true version of that myth.

job293 · Sep 23, 2009

I read the book 'The Bible as History'. I guy who wrote it looked at all the postives and negatives (historically speaking) of the Bible stories. At the end, it seemed like there was far more evidence for than against. I also understand that the Bible became 'politcally incorrect' for arch/historians, therefore, many have shunned away, even if the evidence is staring them in the face.

EnemyPartyII · Sep 23, 2009

job293 said:
I read the book 'The Bible as History'. I guy who wrote it looked at all the postives and negatives (historically speaking) of the Bible stories. At the end, it seemed like there was far more evidence for than against. I also understand that the Bible became 'politcally incorrect' for arch/historians, therefore, many have shunned away, even if the evidence is staring them in the face.

For example?

marktheblake · Sep 23, 2009

EnemyPartyII said:
Its not difficult to see how many of the events in it stem from the traditions of other people in the region, or are religious explanations for mundane, yet at the time, unexplainable events.

it is also not difficult to see that the traditions of other people in the region have their roots in a common history.

EnemyPartyII · Sep 23, 2009

marktheblake said:
it is also not difficult to see that the traditions of other people in the region have their roots in a common history.

It certainly isn't. Did anyone suggest otherwise?

marktheblake · Sep 23, 2009

EnemyPartyII said:
It certainly isn't. Did anyone suggest otherwise?

You certainly did not go to any lengths to suggest anything other then Genesis gets its events from other peoples traditions.

EnemyPartyII · Sep 25, 2009

marktheblake said:
You certainly did not go to any lengths to suggest anything other then Genesis gets its events from other peoples traditions.

Sorry what?

Its pretty easy to determine that Genesis gets some of its material from pre Judaic traditions. Start with the Epic of Gilgamesh, and go from there.

catzrfluffy · Sep 25, 2009

But surely it could also be looked at as the descendants of Noah took their history of the flood and carried it with them as they spread out across the world, the story becoming more distorted as the further away it spread, with the more similar stories congregating near the place where it originated: the middle east.

EnemyPartyII · Sep 25, 2009

catzrfluffy said:
But surely it could also be looked at as the descendants of Noah took their history of the flood and carried it with them as they spread out across the world, the story becoming more distorted as the further away it spread, with the more similar stories congregating near the place where it originated: the middle east.

Indeed, it looks very much as though that is exactly what happened. The original event which all the "Great Flood" stories appear to stem from is the Black Sea inundation event. Over time, in subsequent retellings, what was a truly traumatic, world changing event for those effected, grew and grew until it became the "Global" flood we know from Genesis, Gilgamesh and Graeco-Roman mythology.

catzrfluffy · Sep 25, 2009

But then why the need for the story to be carried all the way around the world? Unless the earth was being repopulated? It appears in almost every culture. See here for a list: Flood Stories from Around the World

ebia · Sep 25, 2009

catzrfluffy said:
But then why the need for the story to be carried all the way around the world?

Floods are a major event in most parts of the world, so one would expect catastrophic flood stories to be near universal.

Interestingly, around here there is an Indigenous story about the Murray River breaking through and creating the Barham Choke that is suffiently precise to date it to the real geological event - between ten and fifteen thousand years ago.

Bible and the history

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