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Beta-Globin Pseudogene Is Functional After All

ChetSinger

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This is a recent article posted by ICR that is of particular interest to me.


This is of personal interest to me because I was confronted with this once during an online debate (not on CF) and had no answer. So today I'm pleased as punch. This particular argument has been a big deal to evolutionists: it was used as evidence in the Dover trial: Here's a portion of the transcript (search for beta-globin).

There's more to the ICR article, and I'm not going to paste the entire thing. But one thing I've taken from it is that we creationists shouldn't be easily intimidated by evolutionary arguments from genetics. After all, we're only just beginning to understand what's really going on in our genome. And the more we learn, the more elegant our genetic code is revealed to be. And the more praise the Lord is due.
 

sfs

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The evidence that HBBP1 is functional is that it appears that mutations do not accumulate in it; indeed, the fact that it's functional is worth an entire scientific paper. Since mutations do accumulate in most pseudogenes, this would also seem to be evidence that most pseudogenes are not functional.

You seem to be looking at a different genome than geneticists are. The more we look at the genome, the more it looks like a crazy-quilt of patches layered on top of gibberish on top of function.
 
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ChetSinger

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You seem to be looking at a different genome than geneticists are. The more we look at the genome, the more it looks like a crazy-quilt of patches layered on top of gibberish on top of function.
Really? Your opinion surprises me, because what I've been reading is exactly the opposite: we're discovering more and more functionality among the "gibberish" each year. I know you're a geneticist, but I hear other geneticists saying different things.

Here's an example. It's an extract from a TIME article that I bought, which I've been able to find on the web.


It goes on and on, describing how the results of Project ENCODE are being used to learn more about the switches involved in various genetic diseases. It's becoming clear to me that the amount of "gibberish" is decreasing, not increasing, as we dig deeper.

Shouldn't we be rejoicing at these kinds of discoveries? Atheists have been beating us up for years, denying God by claiming that more than 90% of our genome is leftover evolutionary junk. But it's turning out to be a denial based on ignorance: the more we learn, the less junk we see.

I think this is an evangelizing opportunity for us: while atheists used to point at our genome and crow about evolutionary junk, we can now point to our genome and crow about the Author of Life.
 
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Fascinated With God

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You didn't address his point that true "junk DNA" accumulates mutations. There is such a thing as defunct genes that are no longer expressed in modern man, for which any number of mutations to those gene produce no effect.
 
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metherion

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Forgive me, but I still don't see exactly how this falsifies any evolutionary arguments.

Okay, instead of a set of conserved mutations in a nonfunctional psuedogene in three species (Assuming I'm reading the transcript correctly, without seeing the referenced slides I could be mistaken, but the transcript references chimpanzees, gorillas, and humans), we have a conserved gene that has the same form and function and is built the exact same way across three different species since they diverged. The quote that makes me think 3 species is here:

And if you go on to the next slide, what I'd like to show you are three organisms, the gorilla, the chimpanzee, and the human being that share the exact same set of molecular mistakes.

I got that from the transcript link in the OP.

I don't see how going "Ah ha, that code isn't junk!" negates the "shared without change across two or three related species that diverged millions of years ago but is still identical, which is what we'd expect to see according to evolution" part. Okay, so the code was classified wrong because we didn't know what it did, but that doesn't change the code sequence, nor does it mean that the chimpanzee no longer shares that code sequence built in the exact same way.

Something just seems off about the premise of the article. Wouldn't it be more the prediction of geneticists that that particular psuedogene was non-functional, and then more work in geneticists which fixed that assumption, with the evolution part just standing off to the side going "Yep, those codes are conserved across these species, regardless of what they mean."?

Metherion
 
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ChetSinger

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Hello. The evolutionary argument was that God wouldn't make the same mistake three separate times. It's presence and "brokenness" was considered evidence that the mistake occurred once in the past and was passed on.

Since it's functional that argument now fails. It can now be considered a design decision.
 
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sfs

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The Time article is, to be blunt, rubbish -- not uncommon in popular articles about science, unfortunately. At no point in the last several decades have geneticists thought that all noncoding DNA was junk. Multiple kinds of non-coding, functional DNA have long been known; what wasn't known was how much there was of it.

When the concept of junk DNA was first proposed, the original guess as to how much of the human genome was functional was 20%. That was several decades ago. The Human Genome Project showed that only ~1.5% of the genome coded for proteins, but the researchers never suggested that only coding DNA was functional. The first decent estimate of the fraction of the genome that was functional came with the publication of the mouse genome in 2002, which identified 5% of DNA as being conserved between humans and mice, and therefore likely functional. The paper explicitly stated that further functional DNA might be found, in particular functional DNA that was specific to one lineage or the other. With the findings of the ENCODE project (assuming Manolis Kellis's arguments are correct), the minimum fraction that's functional is now around 9%; it could be as high as 20%.

Over ~40 years, the amount of junk in the genome has gone from 80% to somewhere between 80% and 90%. That really doesn't look like a decrease to me.

I've never seen an atheist argue that God doesn't exist because our genomes are littered with junk; the only people who've seemed to care have been creationists, who for some reason have insisted that God couldn't have created creatures with useless DNA. That strikes me as a bizarre argument (have they noticed how much of the universe is wasted space?), but the main point is that it's wrong: most of the human genome really is junk.

I think this is an evangelizing opportunity for us: while atheists used to point at our genome and crow about evolutionary junk, we can now point to our genome and crow about the Author of Life.
I prefer to stick to the truth. God, the author of life, created us by means of evolution, and our genomes have a great deal of DNA whose sequence does not matter.
 
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SkyWriting

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That is true. It still looks like gibberish at this time.
I would never be proud of such thoughts though
and I'd keep them to myself.
 
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SkyWriting

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It was an ungrounded argument to start with.
Everyone knows that there is value in failure.
Every time you set your foot down on the floor
your brain makes a judgment call.
Your mostly wrong every step.

If God controlled this world there would
be no need for evolution to run this hell.
 
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SkyWriting

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It still proves that humans are genetically linked to gorillas and chimpanzees, which is not consistent with any YEC interpretation.

DNA is a construction set, like Leggo's.
Similar construction pieces don't create family ties.

 
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sfs

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DNA is a construction set, like Leggo's.
Similar construction pieces don't create family ties.
DNA is nothing like LEGOs. Different versions of a gene can function exactly alike, but have different sequences. Comparing functionally equivalent versions across species, you can easily trace the family tree of that gene as various mutations have accumulated. And you can do again for another gene, and again, and again. If you do, you will find that they tell a consistent story of descent from a common ancestor.
 
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