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It seems to me that a central principle of Christianity is that those who choose to accept Christ as their personal saviour gain access to Heaven whilst those that choose not to are punished or lose out in some way once their lives are over.
But this is based on a notion of belief which we now know to be false.
Believing a proposition is not a choice you make.
It's something that happens to you, not by you.
If you disagree, consider whether you are able right now, to believe that you have a diamond the size of a fridge buried in your garden. Or that your mother is a secret agent working for ISIS.
You are simply not at liberty to believe this, no matter how much you may want to. The only way your brain would accept the truth of the proposition is if you saw the diamond or caught your mother relaying information back to her ISIS contacts.
Then?....
Then you would have no CHOICE but to believe it.
Presented with compelling evidence we are forced to accept the truth of a claim and in the absence of it, we are unable to do so.
Everything we know about neuroscience supports this idea. There are neurological correlates to belief in a given proposition. And they are not voluntary.
With this in mind, it seems unreasonable for God to punish people who are simply not convinced of the claims of Christianity.
I have an open mind but I just don't find Christianity any more convincing than any other religion. It's not because I hate God, or want to sin or anything like that.
I have heard the claims and simply find myself unconvinced by them in exactly the same way as most people here are unconvinced by the claims of Scientology or Hinduism.
That's not a choice you made. Your brains just didn't buy what they were selling.
Given this understanding of the cognition of belief, what is the moral justification for punishing non-belief?
No, not at all. I became unconvinced because of a better standard of evidence.Then you made a choice to belive it was untrue.
You made a choice because there was a choice...period.
I believe that this may be a disingenuous reply as you 'know' that it's not true.Sure.
With some qualification, I also do not hold that belief is a choice. I put my thoughts down here:
Is belief a choice?
I'm agnostic between eternal damnation, annihilationism, and universal reconciliation, but lean towards the later. We'll see...or we won't.
I don’t believe you. There is no way you actually believe the earth has two moons.Sure.
my hermeneutical viewpoint, the points made in the following articles would be my first stepping point here:
Obviously, aspects of the human mind are very well autonomic in nature when it comes to 'belief' on a general level
Let's say, I have heard, but am doubtful, that God loves me and created me to live in a particular way, a way fitting to love (perhaps I'm supposed to love and care for others, as they say God does for me). In this case, my credence level is low, but I still try to live accordingly
Yes, it does, mainly in the area of reproducing study results for ongoing verification of earlier findings. This doesn't necessarily vitiate whatever findings are coming at us from neurological studies related to human belief functions of the brain, but it does impinge upon the assurance and the breadth of applicability of the findings. We can't just take a single study's findings for granted, nor can we assume that some specific finding necessarily explains some social context or psychological context in which a belief process takes place.From what I gather, they're saying CSR needs fine tuning in terms of recognizing the neural correlates of a given religious belief?
Yes, there is that possibility. But as I was mentioning earlier, where 'Christian belief' is concerned, there are epistemic considerations expressed within the text of the Bible that, whether any of us feel we likewise recognize these epistemic structures in our own religious understanding or experiences, are inherent to the content of the Bible. These can't be simply ignored and then dismissed by saying they are inconsequential to the Christian status of a Christian belief, trumped by modern neurological studies or even secular philosophical considerations regarding human beliefRight, religious belief is not mere belief in a set of fact claims. It has intentionality, in terms of how one approaches life. I can say I believe claim x, and let's say I do, and yet how I approach life might be in no way reflected by that mere belief.
Sure, there's the observational and experiential sense data that come by interacting with Christians who claim they are being guided by God, but there is also the idea that God has some volitional influence within the activation of at least some Christian beliefs. There are also the factors of social psychology that inform the overall confluence of belief formation, often accompanying various social and educational endeavors. So, a marginal belief that just 'can't be had' in one passive setting might become a more substantive belief if fostered or searched for in a more active, ongoing scenario involving the same person.On the other hand, I can be doubtful about a particular claim, and yet still approach life as if it's true. Let's say, I have heard, but am doubtful, that God loves me and created me to live in a particular way, a way fitting to love (perhaps I'm supposed to love and care for others, as they say God does for me). In this case, my credence level is low, but I still try to live accordingly.
This is true, PH! The social psychology of trust needs will play a part in influencing the direction and the felt motivations one feels to 'chase after' either a fuller data set for possible Christian belief(s) or to instead 'chase after' a fuller data set for possible ideas that militate against Christian belief.Religious faith, Christian faith at least, entails an element of trust that can outpace the propositional attitude of belief. Jesus seems to imply that the reception of revelation (strong belief) in some sense depends on an intentional approach to life (John 14:21). But even in the one who has strong belief, they still must get up and go through their day trusting the one in whom they believe. It's that personal element of trust that is inescapable, even with a high credence level of belief.
I should point out, and this isn't brought up enough in this context, I can have non-epistemic reasons for adherence to a religious way of life. Perhaps is seems to me I will have an overall better experience in life if I live according to Jesus's rule of love. Or, perhaps I do it because my wife does.
If Christian faith is inseparable from the way one lives (not just morally, but spiritual practices, worship in community, etc.), then those non-epistemic reasons could open the door for a more robust epistemic situation in terms of propositional attitudes of belief. If, for instance, I find Christians are loving and generous, as they say God is, I might become a "believer."
But I can honestly say it was hardly the 'niceness' of Christians I mingled with when first engaging the Christian faith that "did it for me." In fact, I didn't 'become' a Christian and value it because I somehow saw it's truth being lived in other people's lives at church or wherever.
Yeah, that's why I threw that example out there, because it's a crying shame it's not more often the case. It should be a contributing factor with the "The world will know you're my disciples by your love" thing.
Why would this be? Why is it that evidence for the benefits of vaccines for instance can be read by two equally smart people, and one is pro-vaccination and the other is anti-vaccination?1) People are still choosing to dismiss the evidence because of the sunk cost fallacy and are therefore choosing their beliefs.
1) The sunk cost fallacy is a heuristic and people falling for it are still not choosing to be fooled by the fallacy. It may be a fault in their cognition but clearly if they believed they would act accordingly. It's still the case that the lack of belief is something that happens to them, not BY them.
I'm not contending that might makes right. "Might makes right" means that if a strong man wishes to take a weaker man's possessions or wife or children for his own use, he is entitled to. Or that a government in power is entitled to persecute any group of people that is within their power to do so. This is wrong because there is a higher moral law which dictates that individual people have certain rights and dignity and that no person or assembly of people may rightly violate them.2) God is the author of all rules and is therefore entitled to punish anyone as he sees fit.
2) Yes if God is all-powerful he can make whatever rules he wants. My question is whether or not that is moral. If you say that anything God does is moral by definition, then you are surrendering your ability to assess ethics with an independent mind.
'Might' does not make right.
So you're talking about what you would choose to do then?To me, if there were an all-powerful being that chose to create me knowing I would not believe in him (due to lack of evidence and with God also knowing what evidence would be sufficient to convince me and choosing not to provide it) and then chose to punish me for eternity because I applied reason using the brain he gave me, then I would not worship or respect such a bully even if it turned out he did exist.
I would take my punishment knowing that I was on the ethical side of the issue.
I don’t believe you. There is no way you actually believe the earth has two moons.
Can you explain?I'm aware of it, but what was your actual question?
You need to look closely at it.
Why would this be? Why is it that evidence for the benefits of vaccines for instance can be read by two equally smart people, and one is pro-vaccination and the other is anti-vaccination?
I'm talking about what is ethical.So you're talking about what you would choose to do then?
I would say that if two people look at the evidence for the benefits of vaccines, and one concludes that an anti-vaccination stance is warranted, that is strong evidence that they are not equally smart.
I'm talking about what is ethical.
I've always found the idea that a deity is required for morality to be very unconvincing.
Any god who convicts and punishes people for having the nature HE gave them would be an evil god, and not worthy of respect in my view.
My point is a little more subtle than that.Ok. So, you think your idea of god is evil. The good thing is that we know that ... this is just your opinion and something we don't have to delve into here since this isn't a debate forum.
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