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lutherangerman

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I've did some serious introspection during the last few months and years to see whether my thinking and reasoning has flaws. One thing I've noticed is that in my past life I did not always have the right reasons for doing something. It was like most of the time my motivation and reason for doing something stemmed from a feeling, but not from weightier reasons. For example, I may have said to myself I will go to church on Sunday to get my faith strengthened. But most of the time the decisive reason for which I went to church simply was fear of doing something wrong. In my past of unbelief I may have said to myself, I will go dancing to get to know other people, but maybe deep down I had the urge to go there to see girls in revealing clothing. I'm just not sure anymore how far I can trust myself. Maybe Freud is right when he presumes that most people's driving motivation is rather primal. But I do think that this is not universal but rather telling of the spiritual state of those who train themselves not to resist urges. I guess most of the time people have motivations and reasons which are in conflict, and depending on their sense of righteousness they either choose to do the right things or choose to do the wrong things.

I've come to the view that sin is something deeply unreasonable, all things considered ... and that the accusations of those who deem christianity an irrational religion, are wrong. If we were more reasonable, I mean reasonable deep down inside of us, through conviction, through devotion, through earnesty, we would not sin so much, we would discover and cling to the evident strong reasons not to sin.
 
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Washington

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If that makes your day, then fine. However, the reason many find Christianity to be irrational is because when looked at objectively--setting aside emotion, and psychological needs--it is unreasonable. It requires the suspension of reason in favor of faith, which is why Christianity must continually harp on the value of faith. Without it reason would destroy all fidelity to Christianity among its more sagacious followers.
 
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Washington

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I have not found it so. In what way do you perceive christianity to be unreasonable?
I almost never reply to a question by offering only a link, but because there is sooo much that can be addressed in your query I'm making an exception. Please click HERE, choose a book, look around, and take your pick. (And yes, I do recognize that some of the comments are specious and even childish, but a lot of good points are also made.)
 
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Eudaimonist

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I may have said to myself, I will go dancing to get to know other people, but maybe deep down I had the urge to go there to see girls in revealing clothing.

Consider this possibility: your motivations were both.

We all experience urges, and it may be tempting to assign them as the cause of our actions when we have multiple reasons for doing something. But perhaps this is pessimistic, at least some of the time. If one sees that a particular course of action is justified by a process of conscious deliberation (e.g., meeting other people), what does it matter that one had a supporting urge? If you do what you know to be justified, the existence of supportive urges is irrelevant. You did the right thing.

The real problem is when urges lead one to go against one's well-considered judgment. Resisting urges doesn't mean not having them. It doesn't mean that they never motivate an action. Rather, it means that they don't prevent one from doing what one judges to be right.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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quatona

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I tend towards the notion that the more restrictive your morality is the more likely you are to delude yourself about your motives.
 
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Beechwell

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So, what would you base your reasoning on?
For example if you had the chance to steal 10 000 € from someone who could afford to lose it, and are certain you wouldn't get caught. Would there be any reason for you not to do it?

Personally I think - based on what I know about neurological research - that conscious reasoning is always a secondary motive, which we use to justify the decisions of our primal urges. At best it can correct urges that can not be supported by your objective reasoning.
 
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Eudaimonist

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So, what would you base your reasoning on?
For example if you had the chance to steal 10 000 € from someone who could afford to lose it, and are certain you wouldn't get caught. Would there be any reason for you not to do it?

Yes, there are plenty of reasons. You would undermine your sense of justice and your ability to respect yourself and others. This would have profound effects for how you would live your life from that point on. Think of it as naturalistic karma. External consequences are not all that matter -- there would be plenty of internal consequences.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Gracchus

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Scientists can scan the brain while it makes decisions. What they find is that the higher brain functions don't kick in until the decision has been made. We make the decision, then we decide why. This doesn't mean that decisions can't be rational, but it does mean that they don't have to be. Cognitive dissonance arise when people confront the fact that they believe two or more things that cannot all be true.

People believe that god is omniscient and benevolent, but they pray to him to try to change his mind. That is, to put it simply, insane!

 
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Eudaimonist

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The official interpretation of that experiment is not without its critics. There may be a history of rational judgment that is behind the decision, and explains why it was selected by the brain.

And there is a delicious philosophical irony implied by the official intepretation. Did the experimenters decide on how to intepret the experiment without higher brain functions, and only afterwards decide why they chose the intepretation they did? ROTFLOL!


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Gracchus

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If you train yourself to examine your beliefs and decisions, your brain may indeed make rational decisions. But religious persons seldom if ever examine their beliefs. The more ridiculous the belief, they claim, the stronger the faith, and their god demands faith, not reason. Irrational credulity is a sign of sanctity.

 
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Beechwell

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That is certainly a possible rationale. But certainly not the only one. One might shrug of feelings like "sense of justice" or "self respect" as irrational or claim that such a decision - reached purely by reasoning - had no negative internal consequences.
 
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Eudaimonist

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One might. One might also believe the Moon to be made of green cheese.

Regarding the unnoticed, seemingly harmless theft, I was asked "Would there be any reason for you not to do it?"

I supplied one.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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