Becoming Quiverfull

Leisamd said:

...hmm, Sabertooth, I'm struggling to understand the last part of this sentence - could you be a bit more specific about the God's self-imposed obligation and calvinist parts? You make very interesting points and I would like to understand it!!

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There are two parts:

Some Christians (who follow the teachings of John Calvin) believe that there are two kinds of people in this world: those predestined to be saved and those predestined to be damned, with no in-between. They believe that these two groups can do nothing to change their fate, for better or worse, with many other ramifications. Suggesting that God makes SOME people deliberately, while others are simply a product of unguided reproductive physiology, is most consistent with THIS view.

The Bible speaks of predestination in some passages and the ability for people to choose (heaven or hell) in others. This seeming contradiction is known as a paradox. Mainstream Christians accept that they both somehow work together, but there are extremists on both viewpoints.

The second point is that agnostics (and some Christians) believe that God created the universe to work like clockwork requiring little or no intervention on His part. And when He does intervene, He limits Himself to the "rules" He has put in place.

Proverbs 16:33 says,
"The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the LORD."

This implies that God is ACTIVELY involved in the daily workings of the universe. If this is true for dice, how much moreso for conception? This is a fundamental point in QF.

Also, Biblical prophecy shows that God is ultimately directing history, further refuting the notion of PASSIVE, Self-imposed constraint...

BTW, that Proverb might provide the answer to Ishmael, too, now that I think about it. Abraham "rolled the dice" with Hagar and God "answered" with Ishmael. He still gave them Isaac, so Ishmael was God's deliberate response to Abraham's lack of faith...

Also, Biblical prophecy shows that God is ultimately directing history, further refuting the notion of PASSIVE, Self-imposed constraint...

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It probably wasn't very clear, as I wasn't expressing myslef very well., but I don't believe that God is PASSIVE either - and certainly not subject to self-imposed restraints. After all, he has acted outside of natural laws many times in human history (parting the Red Sea and all healings spring to mind as obvious historical and current examples).

I do believe that He voluntarily frequently abdicates responsibility to US though. Jesus did not have to go back to heaven after the Resurrection - he could have stayed and fixed things himself. However, he chose to leave it up to us to be his hands, feet and mouths - with his support and guidance through the Holy Spirit, of course. As we all know though, promptings of the Spirit are easy to ignore, if one is that way inclined

In the same way, i believe he set up the universe to function a particular way, including the way things work on Earth - including, therefore, earthquakes and other natural disasters and the way conception usually happens. He can and sometimes does intervene, it would seem usually in response ot prayer ("I have heard the cries of my people..."). But it seems that he also choses often NOT to work earnestly prayed-for miracles, or protections for loved ones from whatever it might be, etc.

So... I would say he knows which sperm will meet which egg, and has a plan for each of those conceptions. Mostly it happens the 'natural' way - his foreknowledge of the result doesn't affect that - but sometimes he choses to work a miracle for an infertile couple or whatever.

Am I making any more sense?

ok, thanks for that sabertooth! The old pre-destination conundrum! How those of us who are bound by time struggle with things outside of it!

I do understand what you mean, too annapple, thanks!

I have to say, I don't know exactly! But I do know that God knows and has a plan for each life - whatever that plan may be for His glory...

I dunno... I believe that G-d has individual plans for everyone... even people who never accept the L-rd as their personal lord, savior, messiah. I think He is extremely concerned with every detail... nothing too small... and He grieves over the sin in this world and the things that He has to allow because of free will.... He's an omnipotent all powerful G-d.