"Bastard's," Salvation and God's Approval

I've come across something in the Bible that I find very bothersome, considering my step father was bord out of wedlock. God seems to detest children born out of wedlock (ie, "bastards"), and It looks like they're barred from salvation on grounds of being "unclean." I'll explain:

Deuteronomy 23:2 states, "A man born from an illicit union may not join the assembly of the LORD. No descendant of his may join the assembly of the LORD for ten generations."

Hosea 2:4-5 states, "I will not have mercy on her [Isreal's] children, For they are the children of harlotry. For their mother has played the harlot; She who conceived them has behaved shamefully."

Hebrews 12:8 States, "But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then ye are bastards and not sons."

I know that most Christians nowadays do not discriminate against "bastards" or consider them unclean, but until the latter part of the 20th century, this was not so. They were denied a religious education, denied inheritance, denied the right to sue for the wrongful death of a parent, and ostracized. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, they were once even barred from becoming priests: "This law is not established and laid down as a punishment for the person to whom it is applied. It safeguards the honour and dignity of Holy Orders... No stain should be upon it, no blame possible .... Thus the crime of the parents is held up to just reprobation, and is condemned even in the lives of their offspring. The danger of the father's incontinence being continued in the life of the son is greatly lessened." However, even some extreme conservatives nowadays, such as Rabbi Daniel Lapim, argue that "the bastard" should be punished and driven from the family house along with its mother.

Also, I worry the Deuteronomy passage bars "bastards" from becoming Christian's and going to Heaven, because Jesus makes clear in Matthew 5:17 that all OT laws are still in effect

I hope I'm wrong, but the logic of these passages seems inescapable.

Corgi-

Well, there is a very large difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament. In the Old Testament God gave the Jews the Ten Commandments and they were under the law. These laws protected Israel as a nation from other pagan cultures. This meant obeying laws or paying the consequences. Also, they had animal sacrafices to cover their sins.

Jesus came and this took away sins as He was the perfect sacrafice for mankind.

There were no "christians" in the Old Testament. Christ didn't come yet to fulfill the Old Testament. About "bastards" not going to heaven? If this individual comes to Christ and ask Him to forgive his sins, they would be forgiven. The New Testament is in the dispensation of grace; the Old Testament wasn't (big difference). We are saved by grace. The Ten Commandments still hold true for today and Christ forgives us when we break them.

[FONT=&quot]

corgi said:

I've come across something in the Bible that I find very bothersome, considering my step father was bord out of wedlock. God seems to detest children born out of wedlock (ie, "bastards"), and It looks like they're barred from salvation on grounds of being "unclean." I'll explain:

Deuteronomy 23:2 states, "A man born from an illicit union may not join the assembly of the LORD. No descendant of his may join the assembly of the LORD for ten generations."

Hosea 2:4-5 states, "I will not have mercy on her [Isreal's] children, For they are the children of harlotry. For their mother has played the harlot; She who conceived them has behaved shamefully."

Hebrews 12:8 States, "But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then ye are bastards and not sons."


Also, I worry the Deuteronomy passage bars "bastards" from becoming Christian's and going to Heaven, because Jesus makes clear in Matthew 5:17 that all OT laws are still in effect

I hope I'm wrong, but the logic of these passages seems inescapable.

Click to expand...

Illegitimate people have the same access to eternity with God as others do. But God had to establish how seriously He took the sin of pre marital sex and all that came from it.

Deuteronomy 23:2 states, "A man born from an illicit union may not join the assembly of the LORD. No descendant of his may join the assembly of the LORD for ten generations."

This does not state that the illegitimate person did not have access to eternity with God. It was only saying that when the Jewish people gathered in an assembly of the people all illegitimate people where to be barred from the gathering and also all their descendants up to 10 generations where to be barred from such gatherings. It does not state that they have no hope for an eternity with God.

Hosea 2:4-5 states, "I will not have mercy on her [Isreal's] children, For they are the children of harlotry. For their mother has played the harlot; She who conceived them has behaved shamefully."

This is from the Prophet Hosea. this is not commenting on physical harlotry but spiritual harlotry with false religions. When the Jews played with the occult and other religions it was deemed as spiritual harlotry by God.

Hebrews 12:8 States, "But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then ye are bastards and not sons."

This is saying if you are not willing to take Gods correction and rebel against His guidance then you are not really legitimate /proper sons of God but are false sons or illegitimate son in spirit.


Through Jesus all people have a way to eternity with God and people born illegitimate have the same opportunity to embrace the truth and be saved as with everyone else.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days[/FONT]

It's still such a strange thing to believe
Like the "Bastards" could control it, I mean just because its two different testements does that mean God had a change of heart or was he just wrong on that one ?

I have a rather - - different - - approach to Deuteronomy that others do.

I see the "true" law of the Old Testament in the 10 laws that Moses presented after coming down the mountain.
I view all the rest of the book of laws as man's attempts to "interpret and apply" those laws.

I see several times in the New Testament where Christ appears to be telling people the religious leaders applied and interpretted them incorrectly. (Example. His response to them when they complain about his doing good on the sabbath.)

I think that a law like this one regarding "bastards" is the result of someone going to their rabbi and saying, "Is it fair that the children of my husband's mistress inherit equally to the children of my husband's marriage? After all, they were conceived in sin! Adultery!" And some rabbi going, "Well, you have a point. Okay, the children born of adultery cannot inherit." And then someone saying, "What about my grandchildren!?" And someone going, "Okay, the kids up to 10 generations!"

I don't think God was wrong either. If you read the books of the law carefully, you see a difference between "God says," and "here is the law". Notice, it does not say, "God said that bastards cannot inherit." I think that the Talmud/Torah includes some "man-made interrpretations" of the original law of God.

Hmm. I need to think more about what you've said.

Things have changed for the better , there was a prostitute who's bastard son later became a priest. God loves everyone my friend, those ill words what you have heard where the words of mankind and not God.

"What God has cleansed you must not call common." Acts 10:15

"I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself..." Romans 14:14a

Let's make the "unclean" subject of Ro. 14:14 now a pig, (In place of a 'bastard'). Very clearly a pig was considered a ceremonially and dietetically unclean creature according to Moses, and yet Paul the Apostle tells us that a pig, (being unexempted by the words, 'there is nothing',) was not unclean, at least in a sense termed "of itself". Now if one believe's in the inspiration and authority of the Scriptures, then both teachings must stand side by side as being truthful and be interpreted in such a way that does no violence to either stated truth, which truths appear to contradict each other. How? The pig of Moses day was not materially unclean or unacceptable to God...How could such a creature be unacceptable in every sense of the word to a Being who had deliberately and intelligently formed it for the very purpose of it being a pig??? That creature which was not materially or substantially speaking unclean, was unclean or acceptable as far as sacrifices and daily food were concerned. In other words, the pig's unacceptability did not lie in what it actually was by creative composition, but was only declaratively unclean, or, it was to be considered unclean not so much because it was a "Pig", but because it's uncleaness lay only in the law that God had applied to it, which law could be revoked at a later time by God and in fact was.
Now, what was true of a pig, was not true of murder or adultery which were morally unacceptable to God rather than declaratively unacceptable as in the case of an Old Testament swine. A moral evil is an unchangeable evil and must stand so throughout time and eternity, but something which is only declaratively evil only is so as long as it is formally declared to be evil and no longer. As a Jew would be sinning by eating a pork chop during the dispensation of Moses would now not be sinning by eating pork during the age of the Apostles, the actual meat of the pork was really acceptable to God all along but was held a victim, as it was, by a temporary designation of God which didn't really make it substantially evil at all.
This rendering of unclean/clean applies to those who's parentage is called into question in our day and age and don't let anybody tell you otherwise. A Greek, for instance, would have been considered "unclean" as far as a Jew was historically concerned, only the Jew who would have been "right" in Moses day was precisely "wrong" in Paul's day and would still be just as wrong today by the same rendering that applies to our chubby friend the pig! If the God who had declared a Greek or an Italian or Syrian "unclean" in one era, now delcared that in Christ those same agents were now fully and acceptably "clean", then obviously their uncleaness had nothing to do with what they actually were as human beings regardless of parentage, but was only a declaration or sticker, (as it were,) temporarily attached to them superficially. Their uncleaness was in that "sticker" and not in the man or woman who so wore such an imaginary label. There's alot more issues with you, me and every human being alive at present far beyond the sexual sins of our ancestors. God has tons and tons of hot items on all of us far beyond our ability to calculate, but all of these unclean items are forever and fully cleansed in the blood of Christ and what God now calls "clean", let no man ever call "unclean". Once your in Christ the whole nasty record, (whatever it is,) is forever erased. The sexual sins of this or that party prior to you are gone as far as your present status is concerned, which sins never really made you any different from anyone else anyway all along! A pig was really just as materially speaking clean as a dove was and so are you now and forever in Christ.

When Jesus died, the temple curtain was ripped (Mark 15:38), signifying that all people could now come to God through Jesus. Throughout the New Testament, the message is preached that no matter who you are or what you were born as, you can become a Christian and every Christian has equal value in the family of God.

When Jesus came he made a new covenant and fulfilled the old covenant, The old covenant is the 10 commandments. God never said that "bastards" would not inherit the kingdom of God, just during that time because the isrealites were so "stiff-necked" Laws were laid down in order for them to be obedient. On most occasions people were just kicked out, and could not inherit the promised land. Even Moses was not allowed to inherit the promised land. The new testament says that we are free from the law, not that we should go out sinning because of his grace but that if we do mess up we always get another chance. Also Peter had a vision of a blanket coming down with a variety of foods on it, some scolars believe that was to say even the gentiles get freedom or the kingdom some say it means that no food is unclean, and some say it means both. Also he witnessed the Gentiles be filled with the holy spirit.

Even Rahab the prostitute had righteousness credited to her.

Anyways love ya bro and God be with you

Lepers were considered “unclean” and Jesus touched them and healed many, many of them…He was even in their homes…. (Matthew 26:6).. Also some animals were considered “unclean” too and in the New Testament God told Peter in a dream that it’s okay to eat those foods now. Also gentiles were considered unclean too….and Jesus also gave them salvation, and Paul went out to preach to them…and many many gentiles now are in the family of God. God promised Abraham that ALL people (nations) will be blessed through him…that included even people who were gentiles.

I’m sure that even a fatherless Israelite was hated less than a gentile. If God can give us gentiles salvation, people who were considered so “unclean”…what more do you have to worry about? God says that all our sins and filthyness…that His Son has paid for it in full…so we don’t have to worry of our short comings if we have any. We just need our faith in God and in the plan of Salvation and we need to be obedient to Him.

In Hosea…I think God was talking about Israel being a “prostitute.” For example…as a symbolism they are suppose to be as a bride to God….like being devoted to one God only…worshipping God only…..but they were always in idolatry worshipping other gods…that’s what God meant there…that’s a symbolism He used.

In Hebrews 12:8
8But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

It means that if you claim to be God’s children, but have no discipline, you are not His children. Has nothing to do with God hating, He’s basically pointing out, that they are not His because they have no discipline.

God says that anyone who believes and is saved will be in heaven with Him one day. That includes, Greek, Jew, Gentiles….etc….

Hint below of who will not be going
Revelations 21:
6Then He said to me, "It is done I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
7"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
8"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."


[Also, I worry the Deuteronomy passage bars "bastards" from becoming Christian's and going to Heaven, because Jesus makes clear in Matthew 5:17 that all OT laws are still in effect]

No He didn’t say that… He said “ 17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.”
….Luckily I was just doing research on this topic earlier today….I mean yesterday…(it’s 3:00am now)… You MUST understand the verses below in order to understand Matthew 5:17.

Galatians 3:19-29
19Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
20Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.
21Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
22But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.


See Hebrews 10 :1-18 To see read about Jesus fulfilling the Law

See...Christ came to fulfill it...the law was used to show us how sinful we were, and how we needed a Savior. We can't do it alone...and Christ came to fulfill that need. The old convenant included the law...in the New Covenant...Christ fulfilled it. So that's why in verse 25 it says we no long need the law, but Christ. Although..this is for believers only. People who don't have Christ, still lives under the law, and they will be judged under the Law.

Did you know that Christ fulfilled 25 old testament prophecies within 24 hours? How awesome is my King!

So as long as you're saved...you don't live by the law anymore. But if you're not, then you do...and there's a lot more to worry about besides being fatherless...However we can never follow all the laws, so our only salvation is Christ.

The most important thing to worry about is being saved...That's it...after that....everything is taken care of.

If you have questions let me know- Adaneth