Baptists (and others)-- Wives submit to husbands? Wives and husbands equal partners?

tall73 · May 25, 2024

Adventist Heretic said:
it does not come across like that

I have been taking the same approach as to other topics--looking at the text. Though, more time has been dedicated to discussion of views of inspiration, due to not having an existing understanding of the view of the participants.

If I am discussing with Adventists, or Catholics, in most cases, I know where they are coming from on inspiration, tradition, etc.

Of course, there is no complicating factor like Ellen White in the Adventist discussions, or papal statements, in this case. But instead, some have indicated secular academics factoring into their understanding.

Feel free to address the texts.

tall73 · May 25, 2024

Adventist Heretic said:
I have to ask the question why do people obsess with this issue if they have the well-being of others in mind? In my experience, people who obsess with power rarely have the benefit of others in mind. People in power usually use others to benefit themselves.

Paul and Peter both addressed these issues. I do not think that they were obsessed with power. Nor do I think that they wanted to just benefit themselves.

And they both also spoke to how all Christian leadership is servant leadership, and involves mutual submission.

And certainly, those following what Peter and Paul said, would not be abusing their spouse. Because the text says to do just the opposite.

But the texts still describe headship for the husband, and submission of wives to husbands. And the arguments they use are theological, not addressing Roman culture. And they are written in the New Testament era, by two apostles, to various churches throughout the region, in letters specifically meant to advise Christians.

Citing how some use texts to justify abuse, while true, does not speak to what the text says, which rules out abuse.

If you wish to go through the texts verse by verse, we certainly can.

But those who hold to the view of headship based on the text are not going to change their mind because you call it evil. You will have to discuss the text, and show that it is an incorrect view.

Tigran1245 · May 25, 2024

Adventist Heretic said:
no, a slave is inferior in power, authority & rights, you are saying women are inferior in power, authority & rights

Women are not inferior in rights, but have different rights and responsibilities. What is possible for a woman is impossible for a man, and vice versa.

Adventist Heretic said:
what dose this mean.

God created Eve for Adam (!) from his rib to show that woman is not a slave (since she was not created from Adam's heels) and is not a master (since she was not created from Adam's head), but is a servant and a helper. Thus, women are subordinated to men as equals to equals, and not as slave and master.

Likewise, God the Son is subordinate to God the Father as an equal.

Adventist Heretic said:
yes subordination is slavery, someone rules over you and makes decisions about your life without your consent. They do not necessarily have your well-being in mind. They are concerned with their agenda and power.

If the husband's will does not agree with Christianity, such a will has no force. Accordingly, in such cases the woman should not follow the will of her husband. Orthodox church law allows divorce in cases of domestic violence.

Adventist Heretic said:
you cannot have dignity without having say over your own life. when someone else has say over your life you are at their wish and whim.

Marriage is a two-way renunciation of your own desires, of your “I,” in favor of another person. This is the main meaning of marriage: to learn to love another person. So both man and woman must sacrifice for each other. But God put a man at the head of this process.

Adventist Heretic said:
until you understand this is about power who has it and who does not, you will never understand what the problem is. you are saying that some people will never be allowed to have power and it is God ordained. What sickness what evil. it is not a matter of law or behavior or ability, but something they cannot control. gender. This kind of thinking has been used to justify slavery and abuse.

Each woman chooses her own husband and is responsible for her choice. She doesn't have to get married at all if she wants. Marriage is voluntary and optional.

The fact that some people use Christian teaching to justify their sinful goals is not a problem of Christian teaching, which is perfect.

Paidiske · May 25, 2024

Tigran1245 said:
Likewise, God the Son is subordinate to God the Father as an equal.

Subordinationism is a heresy. (A point very much in mind for me today, as it is Trinity Sunday, and my sermon touched on how the non-hierarchical relationships within the Trinity are the model for human relationships, since we are made in the image of a relational God).

The whole "different rights," subordinated but equal, type line is not one we would find convincing in any other context, and it's not convincing for marriage either.

Tigran1245 · May 26, 2024

Paidiske said:
Subordinationism is a heresy. (A point very much in mind for me today, as it is Trinity Sunday, and my sermon touched on how the non-hierarchical relationships within the Trinity are the model for human relationships, since we are made in the image of a relational God).

Yes, there is no subordination in Trinity like subordination among people. This is truly heresy.

However, there is a “logical” subordination: that the will and actions of God come from the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit. Theologians call this the doctrine of the monarchy of the Father.

«I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.»(John.5:19)

Paidiske · May 26, 2024

Tigran1245 said:
However, there is a “logical” subordination: that the will and actions of God come from the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit. Theologians call this the doctrine of the monarchy of the Father.

I do not think my tradition would agree with this, seeing rather that the will of God is one will, shared by the three Persons; but perhaps that is getting rather off topic.

Tigran1245 · May 26, 2024

Paidiske said:
I do not think my tradition would agree with this, seeing rather that the will of God is one will, shared by the three Persons; but perhaps that is getting rather off topic.

It’s only one will (not three same wills), which starts in the Father, goes through the Son and realizes in the Holy Spirit.

Adventist Dissident · May 26, 2024

Tigran1245 said:
Yes, there is no subordination in Trinity like subordination among people. This is truly heresy.

However, there is a “logical” subordination: that the will and actions of God come from the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit. Theologians call this the doctrine of the monarchy of the Father.

«I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.»(John.5:19)

subordination is a result of sin. Servanthood is the model of Christ and the result of the cross.

tall73 · May 26, 2024

Paidiske said:
I do not think my tradition would agree with this, seeing rather that the will of God is one will, shared by the three Persons; but perhaps that is getting rather off topic.

You may discuss it if you wish.

Danthemailman · May 26, 2024

The Bible does say in Ephesians 5:22 - Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.

BUT WE ALSO NEED TO KEEP READING

23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word.

Submission to the husband AND loving your wife is a joint effort.

tall73 · May 26, 2024

Danthemailman said:
The Bible does say in Ephesians 5:22 - Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.

BUT WE ALSO NEED TO KEEP READING

23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word.

Submission to the husband AND loving your wife is a joint effort.

Yes, they go together.

tall73 · May 26, 2024

Adventist Heretic said:
Servanthood is the model of Christ and the result of the cross.

You have said it doesn't look like I am trying to get a comprehensive view. I am. As indicated from the outset, I have a current view, as does each person interacting. And I hoped to hear views of the texts that give the other side, so I can try to understand them.

But a comprehensive view must look at all the texts. And particularly, if we are discussing whether wives are to submit to husbands, we need to look at the texts in the New Testament that speak directly to this issue.

For instance, we have talked about Ephesians 5 considerably because it is the longest NT treatment of the subject of how Christian husbands and wives relate. The passage:

Is in the New Testament.
Is after the cross
Is after the coming of the Spirit upon the believers
Is from the Holy Spirit, through an apostle
Is written to a church to instruct about marriage in a Christian context
Refers to the servant leadership of Christ, and the cross (He gave Himself up for the church)
Calls the husband to the same servant leadership
Reiterates that all should submit to one another in service to one another

But also Ephesians 5 says:

Wives submit to your own husbands as to the Lord
The husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church
Just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

You seem to indicate that the servant leadership of Christ is out of step with submission of wives to husbands. But the text does not say that. It compares the headship of Christ, who the church submits to in all things, to the headship of the husband, who the wife is indicated to submit to in all things. And it also compares the manner of headship of the husband to that of Christ, giving himself up for his wife, not looking to his own interests.

Ephesians 5:17-33 17 Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.
22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband. (NKJV)

And these other texts, also written in the NT era, in light of the cross, also by apostles, also written to churches to explain the Christian life, to various churches throughout various provinces, also speak of submission of wives to husbands:

Colossians 3:18-19
18 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter toward them. (NKJV)

1 Peter 3:1-7
1 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. 3 Do not let your adornment be merely outward—arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel— 4 rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror.
7 Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered. (NKJV)

Rose_bud · May 26, 2024

tall73 said:
Since it looks like you are progressing through the elements, and part of the argument is tracing through so as to see them as a whole, could you please, when you are finished, post all of them together again in succession for folks to get the desired impact? Then we could address the observations and arguments made regarding the text.

I realize you already indicated we could, and you have to some degree interacted. But, because in the other thread you indicated it may take you a while, I have waited to get the whole picture.

Hi tall73
Thank you for you patience.

Rose_bud · May 26, 2024

From the previous post

I'll reiterate that Jesus came to set us free so we are able to do what He purposed us to do as indicated in Genesis to care for his creation together, to be fruitful and multiply. His instruction was that we serve one another, in which we die to our own selfish agendas and live for His. In so doing we subvert the rule and governing of the fallen way of life.

When Peter writes to encourage wives to submit to their husbands it is within the context of persecution. They were new group of Christians being persecuted for their faith and for not partaking in the things that they formerly partook. They were to continue to live holy and set apart from their former way of life. In an environment of unbelievers, their conduct should be without reproach in order to "win" the unbeliever. In the beginning of the letter he is mindful to let them know they are God's chosen people, a holy priesthood of believers. Instead of retaliating, they are to submit. They were truly free to do this. They could do this, he had just explained earlier why.. they had a living hope in God who would bring about what he promised. The revelation of Christ.

Peter interestingly starts with the lowest social class of people and addresses this first, a subversion of the societal order. All within the framework of submission with the purpose of honoring Christ and reaching the unbelieving. Slave to masters as Christ did as a suffering servant, wives to husbands in the same way and husbands in the same way to be considerate to unbelieving wives. The same way is the way of Christ, for the same reason - redemption.

Sarah and Abraham had a far from perfect relationship. She is used to illustrate as an example of obedience, even when that obedience left her compromised, not once but twice. She was a beautiful women, but she did a kindness that would benefit him and is demonstrated when she said she is his sister. Which is I understand to be more in-line with the overall reading. For the sake of Christ and the unbelievers redemption. Submit even when difficult, for the best interest of the next person. The goal is greater - redemption.

tall73 · May 26, 2024

Rose_bud said:
From the previous post

I'll reiterate that Jesus came to set us free so we are able to do what He purposed us to do as indicated in Genesis to care for his creation together, to be fruitful and multiply. His instruction was that we serve one another, in which we die to our own selfish agendas and live for His. In so doing we subvert the rule and governing of the fallen way of life.

When Peter writes to encourage wives to submit to their husbands it is within the context of persecution. They were new group of Christians being persecuted for their faith and for not partaking in the things that they formerly partook. They were to continue to live holy and set apart from their former way of life. In an environment of unbelievers, their conduct should be without reproach in order to "win" the unbeliever. In the beginning of the letter he is mindful to let them know they are God's chosen people, a holy priesthood of believers. Instead of retaliating, they are to submit. They were truly free to do this. They could do this, he had just explained earlier why.. they had a living hope in God who would bring about what he promised. The revelation of Christ.

Peter interestingly starts with the lowest social class of people and addresses this first, a subversion of the societal order. All within the framework of submission with the purpose of honoring Christ and reaching the unbelieving. Slave to masters as Christ did as a suffering servant, wives to husbands in the same way and husbands in the same way to be considerate to unbelieving wives. The same way is the way of Christ, for the same reason - redemption.

Sarah and Abraham had a far from perfect relationship. She is used to illustrate as an example of obedience, even when that obedience left her compromised, not once but twice. She was a beautiful women, but she did a kindness that would benefit him and is demonstrated when she said she is his sister. Which is I understand to be more in-line with the overall reading. For the sake of Christ and the unbelievers redemption. Submit even when difficult, for the best interest of the next person. The goal is greater - redemption.

Thank you for addressing some of the details here, and in the creation accounts, etc. We can look at it when you are finished.

tall73 · Jun 8, 2024

tall73 said:

You even admitted that the texts call on women to submit, in a way men are not, but attributed it to cultural concession.

But then instead of explaining how these arguments were those of cultural concession--which they are not--now you indicate a filtering lens.

t all73 said:

You misrepresent the implications of the ACTUAL reading.

Paidiske said:
Sorry, no. I have worked with far too many abuse survivors to buy into this no true Scotsman kind of argument. Their bruises and broken bones speak far more loudly.

It is not a "not true Scotman" kind of argument.

If I said "no Christian husband would abuse his wife" that would be a no true Scotsman type of argument. I said you are misrepresenting the implications of the actual reading.

No one would get bruises and broken bones from the husband following this:

Ephesians 5:24-29

24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. (NKJV)

The text rules out breaking bones completely. Not one person who you saw with broken bones was in that condition because the person who inflicted such damage was following what this text said. So this smear towards my view of following what Ephesians says can be dispensed with.

But the text does say wives are to submit as the church does to Christ.

And the issue you have expressed throughout this thread is that any dynamic where there is greater submission from the wife to the husband is abuse. For instance, from this post several such statements stood out as representative:

Paidiske said:

But saying to women they must submit "in everything," is inherently coercive.

But telling wives that God expects one-sided submission from them is setting up a controlling dynamic. That's not a description of Christian love, from where I'm standing.

But since we know that dynamics of control are abusive, then this must be a false understanding of God's will.

I cannot agree. It doesn't matter how loving he is, if she is required to submit, and he is, therefore, in control, that is abuse.

When you respond to the text, which says:

Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything

by saying

But since we know that the dynamics of control are abusive, then this must be a false understanding of God's will

You have not dealt with what the text says. You have only said what, in your view, the text CANNOT say. You won't allow it to say that, because you have your own presupposition by which you judge any reading.

The purpose of this thread, however, is stated in the OP:

tall73 said:

The purpose of this thread is to discuss what Scripture says on the topic. Should wives submit to husbands? Should wives and husbands be equal partners?

So if you are going to claim the text is not saying something, you cannot just reason from your presuppositions. You have to actually address the text.

You acknowledged that it spoke of one way submission, but said it was cultural. But it was pointed out that the arguments are not cultural, but rather theological.

You indicated that you interpret it in the big picture of Scripture. But the big picture includes the various texts on submission. In fact, those texts are the clearest statements of specific instructions, from New Testament Apostles, about how husbands and wives are to relate, which is the topic of the thread. So saying you are looking at the big picture, while refusing to address the specific arguments that directly address the point, is not accurate.

Instead, you are saying that the texts cannot be saying that because of your view that unequal submission=abuse. If you want to look at what Scripture says you are going to have to engage with the arguments that Paul and Peter make, and not just say that they can only mean what you determine is within limits for them to mean, without actually addressing the text.

So, let's again post some of the arguments:

Arguments from the text	Roman culture?
Ephesians 5:23-24 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. (NKJV)	Not an argument conceding to Greco-Roman culture
Ephesians 5:25 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her (NKJV)	Not an argument conceding to Greco-Roman culture
Colossians 3:18 18 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. (NKJV)	Not an argument conceding to Greco-Roman culture
1 Peter 3:5-6 5 For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror.	Not an argument conceding to Greco-Roman culture

Paidiske · Jun 8, 2024

tall73 said:
It is not a "not true Scotman" kind of argument.

It is. Because you are saying that the implications of the ACTUAL reading do not lead to abuse, and ignoring all the instances where abusers cite this actual reading as justification for their abuse. It's a "no true Scotsman" in the sense of, no reading I disagree with is an ACTUAL reading.

tall73 said:
And the issue you have expressed throughout this thread is that any dynamic where there is greater submission from the wife to the husband is abuse.

Actually, I have said something slightly more nuanced. I have said that control of the wife by the husband is abuse. And that one-sided submission sets up dynamics of control.

tall73 said:
You have not dealt with what the text says.

I have. I have insisted that what it says can only be rightly understood as one part of the mutual submission indicated in the previous verse.

I have put forward and explained my position. I am not interested in discussing Paul's and Peter's arguments in detail.

Reasonably Sane · Jun 8, 2024

tall73 said:
Southern Baptists are the largest Baptist convention. The Southern Baptist Baptist Faith and Message 2000 states:

The husband and wife are of equal worth before God, since both are created in God’s image. The marriage relationship models the way God relates to His people. A husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church. He has the God-given responsibility to provide for, to protect, and to lead his family. A wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ. She, being in the image of God as is her husband and thus equal to him, has the God-given responsibility to respect her husband and to serve as his helper in managing the household and nurturing the next generation.

The American Baptist Churches USA policy statement On Women and Men as Partners in Church and Society takes a different view. The document is rather long. Here is a key phrase related to the topic:

We affirm that the practice of partnership between women and men can be most effectively taught in the home with the church's active help. This means that the father and the mother should model mutual love and respect for the gifts and qualities that each brings to their marriage and the home they have established.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss what Scripture says on the topic. Should wives submit to husbands? Should wives and husbands be equal partners?

The topic is NOT about whether women should be preachers, priests, elders, overseers, bishops, pastors, deacons, should teach, etc. That may be a topic for another thread for Baptists at some point. But this is looking at the relation between wives and husbands.

I think where we go off the rails with this whole issue is applying our human thinking to God's rules. That is, we see a manager as more valuable than the people he manages. That's not how God sees it. So yes, the woman submits to her husband, but the husband also submits to his wife. They just do it differently. They literally have different roles and bring different strengths and weaknesses to the table. Where I am weak, my wife is strong, and vice versa. Men are different than women. And that is how God designed us. A couple that works with this understanding will be a MUCH happier and more productive couple than one that looks not just for equality, but for "equity". The latter ain't happening. At least, not for long.

I had to drive 90 minutes from my job a few years ago to get rid of a large cow snake that got into our living room that was scaring my wife to death. Meanwhile, I'll be working in my shop and around noon, completely by surprise, my wife walks in with an absolutely delicious sandwich and a glass of water. And no, we're not newlyweds. We're 70 and have been married for 26 years. The honeymoon simply never ended.

Reasonably Sane · Jun 8, 2024

tall73 said:
Some texts that have been put forth as relating to the issue. Feel free to add others:

Genesis 1:27

27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. (NKJV)

Genesis 2:18-25

18 And the LORD God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” 19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.
21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.
23 And Adam said:
“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”
24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. (NKJV)

Genesis 3:16

16 To the woman He said: “I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you.” (NKJV)

Matthew 20:25-28

25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. 26 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. 27 And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave— 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” (NKJV)

Mark 9:33-35

33 Then He came to Capernaum. And when He was in the house He asked them, “What was it you disputed among yourselves on the road?” 34 But they kept silent, for on the road they had disputed among themselves who would be the greatest. 35 And He sat down, called the twelve, and said to them, “If anyone desires to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all.” (NKJV)

1 Corinthians 7:3-5

3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. (NKJV)

1 Corinthians 11:2-16

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.
13 Judge among yourselves. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him? 15 But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering. 16 But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God. (NKJV)

Galatians 3:26-29

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. (NKJV)

Galatians 5:13

13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. (NKJV)

Ephesians 5:21-33

21 submitting to one another in the fear of God. (NKJV)22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband. (NKJV)

Colossians 3:18-19

18 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter toward them. (NKJV)

Titus 2:1-5

1 But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine: 2 that the older men be sober, reverent, temperate, sound in faith, in love, in patience; 3 the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things— 4 that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed. (NKJV)

1 Peter 3:1-7

1 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. 3 Do not let your adornment be merely outward—arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel— 4 rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror.
7 Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered. (NKJV)

I think our culture not abiding by the scripture you cited above from 1 Corinthians 7:3-5 is one of the reasons porn is so popular today.

tall73 · Jun 8, 2024

tall73 said:

It is not a "not true Scotman" kind of argument.

If I said "no Christian husband would abuse his wife" that would be a no true Scotsman type of argument. I said you are misrepresenting the implications of the actual reading.

No one would get bruises and broken bones from the husband following this:

Ephesians 5:24-29

24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. (NKJV)

The text rules out breaking bones completely. Not one person who you saw with broken bones was in that condition because the person who inflicted such damage was following what this text said. So this smear towards my view of following what Ephesians says can be dispensed with.

Paidiske said:
It is. Because you are saying that the implications of the ACTUAL reading do not lead to abuse, and ignoring all the instances where abusers cite this actual reading as justification for their abuse

People can cite Scripture wrongly to justify anything! If abusers cite this to justify their abuse,

24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. (NKJV)

we can fairly say they are simply twisting. Loving their own wives as Christ loved the church is clearly not in line with breaking her bones.

And I rather doubt any of them cited that portion to you to justify their position.

If you are saying they only cited "wives submit to your husbands", without looking at the rest, I am sure some do.

But then are they actually going by the principle we have been discussing? Of course not. So that doesn't invalidate what we have been discussing.

They are simply pulling things from the entire statement which they like, and ignoring the parts they do not like. Which ironically, is the same thing that you are doing here, but a different direction. They are failing to look at all of what is said. You are also refusing to look at all of what was said.

And even "wives submit to your husbands" does not say break her bones, which is ridiculous. You cannot blame that type of abuse on the text. Nor can you claim that my reading in this thread of the text leads to such abuse. Because it rules out any such behavior.

People have twisted MANY Scriptures. That does not invalidate the Scriptures.

Paidiske said:
It's a "no true Scotsman" in the sense of, no reading I disagree with is an ACTUAL reading.

There is no reading of the text that justified breaking bones. Those who do so have to only look at the parts they like. But the actual reading is not responsible for that. And neither do I have to answer for someone ele picking one verse, and ignoring the rest. It does not reflect on the actual reading, or my view of it.

Now, I am willing to entertain your reading IF you actually engage the arguments in the text. You are the one who is unwilling to entertain an argument that goes against your "nuanced" view.

So again I am asking you to look at the arguments in the text--the whole text--not just the parts you like--because that is what looking at Scripture involves.

Paidiske said:
I have. I have insisted that what it says can only be rightly understood as one part of the mutual submission indicated in the previous verse.

We agree it can only be rightly understood in the context, including the previous verse.

Paidiske said:
I am not interested in discussing Paul's and Peter's arguments in detail.

Then you are not interested in looking at what Scripture says. If you are not interested in looking at all of it, instead of just the parts you want, then you are not looking at Scripture.

The abuser who twists the Scripture, and it certainly is twisting to get from love your wives as Christ loves the church, to breaking bones, is also looking at just the part he wants, and not the part that rebukes him.

And no, I am not accusing you of anything morally equivalent. I am saying you are employing the same method. You won't look at the parts you don't care for, in detail.

Neither his approach, which looks at only part of the text, or your approach, which looks at only a different part of the text, without addressing specifics of Paul and Peter's arguments, is really looking at Scripture. It is only looking at the parts desired.

If you change your mind and want to engage the specifics, within the very verses that most closely address this topic, by apostles, in the New Testament, then we can.

If not, it looks like @Rose_bud is working towards a detailed presentation, and folks can engage with that once it is completed.

Baptists (and others)-- Wives submit to husbands? Wives and husbands equal partners?

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Great is thy faithfulness, O God my Father...

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