Baptists and Augustine

ps139 said:

I hope you get back to it too! Unfortunately I did not finish it either. I got about 80% through it, and then all of a sudden I have no idea where it is. My room is kind of messy though, I'm hoping its just "hiding" .
A friend of mine got a 38 book patristics set, might be the same one! He told me Augustine took up more volumes than anyone else.

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Augustine just wrote a ton! A friend of mine is pretty knowledgeable on Augustine, and she's always frustrated when people try to pin him down. His corpus is too large to really do that.

BT said:

The order is

Aristotle - 384 BC

Augustine - 354 AD

Ol' Johnny Calvin - 1509

Then FYI

Aristotle - 384 BC

Plato - 428 BC

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Socrates (470-399 BC) taught Plato (427-347 BC)
Plato (427-347 BC) taught Aristotle (384-322 BC)
Paul of Tarsus (1st century AD) probably had more Platonic than Aristotelian influences.
Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD) was largely influenced by the Platonic and neo-Platonic thought of his time and brought it into Christian theology with little influence from Aristotle. Pauline teaching is an assumed influence on all Christian theologians.
Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274 AD) was largely influenced by the rediscovery of Aristotelian thought and brought it into Christian theology. His theology was influenced by and seen as an augment to Augustine's.
John Calvin (1509-1564 AD) was strongly influence by both Augustinian (Platonic) and Aquinian (Aristotelian) theology.

Obviously all these men had other influences, but these should highlight some of the key players.

An quick explanation of the difference between Platonic and Aristotelian thought:

History of Philosophy - Aristotle

...
Philosophically, the works of Aristotle reflect his gradual departure from the teachings of Plato and his adoption of a new approach. Unlike Plato, who delighted in abstract thought about a supra-sensible realm of forms, Aristotle was intensely concrete and practical, relying heavily upon sensory observation as a starting-point for philosophical reflection.
...

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theseed said:

I think that Augustine believed in unconditional election and total depravity of sinners.

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You are right about this. Augustine is the source of much doctrinal teaching for the Church in general. However, as someone said earlier, there is a great deal of what he wrote that makes you wonder what he may have been smoking when he wrote it.

This is true of many of the early church fathers. Remember, no printing presses, no systematic theologies, no Bible colleges or seminaries. Much of what was known was oral tradition. Specific doctrines developed as questions were asked and investigated at various church councils.

T.U.L.I.P. which came to be called Calvinism, was actually a systemization of the doctrinal positions taught by Augustine on the part of the Synod of Dort. This council was called to decide what to do about the teachings of a group known as The Remonstrants who were trying to revive a semi-Pelagian heretical position.

Dmckay said:

T.U.L.I.P. which came to be called Calvinism, was actually a systemization of the doctrinal positions taught by Augustine on the part of the Synod of Dort. This council was called to decide what to do about the teachings of a group known as The Remonstrants who were trying to revive a semi-Pelagian heretical position.

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That semi-Pelagian position of the Remonstrants is known as Arminianism after its founder Jacobus Arminius. It was held by the first Christian group named 'Baptist', a group of General Baptists lead by John Smyth. Many modern Free Will Baptists still hold to this position as well as an overwhelming majority of Methodists.

Rofl

The Lord's Envoy said:

you really like that wikipedia site dont you

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It is a very useful resource. Very few places will have so much useful information in one place. Similar info could be found in other places, but would require referencing many different sites and take a lot longer. And because of its open status, the information is continually being updated, added to and corrected.

It shouldn't be seen as the most authoritative source because of its open status, but it is a good starting point for many who have never been exposed to the terms or concepts being discussed.

I think it is important to have referrences wherever possible so that the ideas I am sharing have a point of reference and aren't simply my ideas.

BT said:

who is "they"?

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"They" being the Roman Catholics as indicated in the quote from you

The Lord's Envoy said:

Where does Augustine fit in the Baptist world?

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Good Day, The Lord's Envoy

I like him have read alot of his stuff, most of it is on line.


Peace to u,

Bill

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, The Lord's Envoy

I like him have read alot of his stuff, most of it is on line.


Peace to u,

Bill

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Now that doesn't surprise me one bit. ROFL

BT said:

We can talk about Augustine and we can talk about Catholicism.

We can not bash Catholics (seperate the folks from the teaching so to speak).

We're free to post within the rules in our own forum. We're not allowed to say that "Catholics are all going to hell." 1. Because we couldn't say that truthfully anyways Only God knows. and
2. It's against the forum rules to call one group "not Christian". and
3. Even if you believe that, the statement itself does not exhibit the kind of grace and love that we are commanded to show. If you could show me one instance of Jesus saying, "You're going to hell" then I could change my mind. What I find Him doing is warning people of hell and telling them how to avoid it, what kinds of things end up getting you there, what it is like (real) etc. I never see Him pointing the finger at anyone and saying "Buddy, you are going to hell". Even in speaking of Judas He only said that it would have been better for him if he had never been born.. Anyway so long as we remain Christ-like we have nothing to fear from the "rules"

So as long as we remain within the rules there will be no issue...


So now:

Where does Augustine fit with the Baptists?

He doesn't. Normally. He wrote some good things, and some of his works are respected ('specially in the calvinistic circles) but he was the "Father of Roman Catholicism" and also printed many things that we would disagree with.

Why doesn't he fit with us normally? He has a place, but it's a small if even noticable one because of the majority of his doctrine. Even the calvinistic baptists would get on board with Calvin (duh) rather than Augustine. Though calvin got much from him.

Since we aren't "traditionalists" (and btw the RC's are the only traditionalists in the world, as I'm sure a lot of you know) we take what we like from the fathers and trash the rest.. That's why I say that he doesn't have much to do with the baptists in general...

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Good Day, BT

On what writings and basis do you come to this conculsion? one can surely can see that he viewed some of the "big" verses out side of the view of the current Roman Church.

And I tell you...‘You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her. To you shall I give the keys of the kingdom. Whatever you bind on earth shall also be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall also be loosed in heaven’ (Mt 16:15-19). In Peter, Rocky, we see our attention drawn to the rock. Now the apostle Paul says about the former people, ‘They drank from the spiritual rock that was following them; but the rock was Christ’ (1 Cor 10:4). So this disciple is called Rocky from the rock, like Christian from Christ...Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer (John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Vol. 6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327).

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Peace to u,

Bill

Double post *

Interestingly, St Augustine has very little influence in the Greek speaking East.

BT said:

...Since we aren't "traditionalists" (and btw the RC's are the only traditionalists in the world,...

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What about the E.O., the O.O., and even the Church of England?

"Father of Roman Catholicism"

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Why do you say this?

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, BT

On what writings and basis do you come to this conculsion? one can surely can see that he viewed some of the "big" verses out side of the view of the current Roman Church.

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Peace to u,

Bill

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(I will just mention that though Augustine is considered the Father of Roman Catholicism he is also considered a Church Father of Protestantism. And the "current Roman Church" does not define who laid down the "historic Roman Church"es doctrines...)

Ack! I'm a little angry right now because of this idiotic editor. I just lost several pages of typing in this reply.

Though Augustine is important to Protestantism he is consistently referred to as the "father of Roman Catholicism". I normally don't provide reference for what I write in the Bap. forum (yet I have when required), and I don't have the time (to be honest) to type out all kinds of reference material but I will provide you with one (of probably at least ten that I could dig up). And NO I'm not typing the whole thing out for you. Call me a liar if you want..

NICENE AND POST-NICENE FATHERS (First Series)

Volume (1)

Augustin
- Prolegomena
- Confessions
- Letters

PROLEGOMENA {FROM SCHAFF'S CHURCH HISTORY, REVISED EDITION, New York 1884. Vol. III 988-1028. Revised and enlarged with additions to literature till 1886)

CHAPTER V. - The Influence of St. Augustin upon Posterity, and his Relation to Catholicism and Protestantism

In conclusion we must add some observations respecting the influence of Augustin on the Church and the world since his time, and his position with reference to the great antagonism of Catholicism and Protestantism. All the church fathers are, indeed, the common inheritance of both parties; but no other of them has produced so permanent effects on both, and no other stands in so high regard with both, as Augustin. Upon the Greek Church alone has he exercised little or no influence; for this Church stopped with the undeveloped synergistic anthropology of the previous age, and rejects most decidedly, as a Latin heresy, the doctrine of the double procession of the Holy Spirit (the Filioque) for which Augustin is chiefly responsible. [1]

... (two paragraphs)

Augustin is also the principal creator of the Latin-Catholic system as distinct from the Greek Catholicism on the one hand, and from evangelical Protestantism on the other. He ruled the entire theology of the middle age, and became the father of scholasticism in virtue of his dialectic mind, and the father of mysticism in virtue of his devout heart, with being responsible for the excesses of either system.
...
Even now, since the Catholic Church has become a Roman Church, he enjoys greater consideration in it than Ambrose, Hilary, Jerome, or Gregory the Great. All this cannot possibly be explained without an interior affinity. [2. this reference is to Nourrisson, the able expounder of the philosophy of Augustin. But is unfortunately in french. The 'gist of it is that Augustin is great.. there is a reference to the Apostle Paul and a comparison between the two with Augustine as "' fonder l'unite catholique'"]

...
It was, indeed, a full and unconditional surrender of his mind and heart to God, but it was at the same time a submission of his private judgment to the authority of the church which led him to the faith of the gospel. [3. This footnote is in Latin but is well written]
...
He was the first to give a clear and fixed definition of the sacrament, as a visible sign of invisible grace....but knows nothing of the number seven; this was a much later enactment. In the doctrine of baptism he is entirely Catholic, though in logical contradiction with his dogma of predestination; he maintained the necessity of baptism for salvation ... derived from it the horrible dogma of the eternal damnation of all unbaptized infants, though he reduced their condition to a mere absence of bliss, without actual suffering
....

** it goes on ***

[1] This is a long footnote.. so go to your local Theological seminary and sign the book out

[3] We recall his famous anti-Manichaean dictum: "Ego evangelio non crederem, nisi me catholicae ecclesiae commoveret auctoritas." The Protestant would reverse this maxim, and ground his faith in the church on his faith in Christ and in the gospel. So with the well-known maxim of Irenaeus: "Ubi ecclesia, ibi Spiritus Dei, et ubi Spiritus Dei, ibi ecclesia." According to the spirit of Protestantism it would be said conversely: "Where the Spirit of God is, there is the church and where the church is, there is the Spirit of God."

Bulldog said:

Why do you say this?

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because it is a true statement

JeffreyLloyd said:

What about the E.O., the O.O., and even the Church of England?

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Sure there are lots of traditionalist or traditionalistic churches out there... even some within protestantism (which should come as little surprise really).

Kripost said:

Interestingly, St Augustine has very little influence in the Greek speaking East.

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That's very true.. check the reference.