Bad Theology In Hymns

Rich48 · Sep 12, 2007

Keemah said:
Rich, I will have to think about what you are saying the next time I hear that song. Maybe it will help me like it better.

There is a link to the song in the post just above your post!

I see nothing wrong with wanting only that which He promised. Now, that being said, not all translations use the word mansion:

Joh 14:2 In my Fathers house are many dwelling places: if it were not so, I would haue tolde you: I go to prepare a place for you. (Geneva)

Joh 14:2 There are many rooms in my Father's house, and I am going to prepare a place for you. I would not tell you this if it were not so. (GNB)

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house there are many resting-places. Were it otherwise, I would have told you; for I am going to make ready a place for you. (Weymouth)

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house there are many abodes; were it not so, I had told you: for I go to prepare you a place; (Darby)

I see the song as nothing more than expressing a desire for that of which Christ spoke.

jaigner · Apr 11, 2010

LivingWorship said:
One I have questioned from time to time is actually a more modern song; Create in Me a clean Heart... we sing it with gusto at church but the line "take not thy holy spirit from me" has puzzled me... can the holy spirit be taken away from one who is a believer? No, if they are living a repentant life, I believe not. Outside of that... perhaps. takers?

Ahhhhh!!! This is direct from a Psalm of David after he sinned with Bathsheba. Psalm 51.

And the issue of the Holy Spirit is not as cut and dry, especially in the Old Testament. The language of God's Spirit was not used then as it was after the ascension of Christ. Hardly ever appears in the OT at all.

Blessings.

jaigner · Apr 11, 2010

Rich48 said:
Very true-it is just bad wording-"while on others thou are calling, do not pass me by."

I heard a preacher on time come down hard on on the old hymn "Near The Cross." His thought was that we are not stay at the cross, but to go to the world and reach them. A bit a a stretch?

Rich

No, no, no. That is just bad preaching and disturbing theology. The reformers would turn over in their grave. They preached that the cross of Christ should be center and that we should keep turning back to it.

jaigner · Apr 11, 2010

arunma said:
You're quite right, there is no short supply of great contemporary worship music, including Chris Tomlin's songs. I prefer older hymns purely out of personal preference. It would be wrong to listen solely to traditional hymns for any theological reasons. After all, such things as the compound microscope and the theory of classical thermodynamics are older than these so-called "traditional" hymns.

I actually have a real issue with Tomlin. His texts are poorly written, full of mixed metaphors and spurious analogies. Just because someone is sincere and earnest in their songwriting does not automatically give the product validity. We do ourselves a great disservice if we fail to realize this.

Rich48 · Apr 12, 2010

jaigner said:
I actually have a real issue with Tomlin. His texts are poorly written, full of mixed metaphors and spurious analogies. Just because someone is sincere and earnest in their songwriting does not automatically give the product validity. We do ourselves a great disservice if we fail to realize this.

Ok--a couple of things. First of all, I will agree the later part of your post. But, just because a song is "an old hymn", does not mean that it is automatically scripturally correct.

But will disagree with you on Chris Tomlin. I love his music. Here is one a video that I made for How Great Is Our God. The link may takes several seconds to open, and you will have to watch a random short commercial.

How Great Is Our God

Can you please give examples of "His texts are poorly written, full of mixed metaphors and spurious analogies"?

jaigner · Apr 12, 2010

"But, just because a song is "an old hymn", does not mean that it is automatically scripturally correct."

You are very right. But, there are a few factors that make (older) hymns a bit more trustworthy.

1) They are mostly from a time when all of Christianity was more theologically trained/literate.

2) They tend to be less experiential in nature, with the exception of the gospel hymnody genre that employs the experiential a bit more (i.e. "you ask me how I know He lives, He lives within my heart.") This is not necessarily wrong, but opens up to more theological error and subjectivity.

3) The theologically poor older hymns have been filtered out to a large degree.

4) Christian music during that period (1600-1900) was not commercial and consumer-driven. CCM recording/marketing practices are, at times, frightening.

Blessings.

Again, you are correct that an old text is not necessarily a sound text. There are also a number of good new texts being written. Check out the work of Stuart Townend and Keith Getty, for instance.

Rich48 · Apr 18, 2010

One of the things that is very interersting to note is/are the verses that have been long forgotten since they were penned. A good example is the hymn O For A Thouand Tonges To Sing. If your church uses a hymnal rather than a screen; how many verses are there? 4, 5, 6, or even a couple more (if it is really good!); but--how many did Charles Wesly pen? Some 19!!

O for a Thousand Tongues to Sing

Why were so many dropped?

jaigner · Apr 18, 2010

Generally, just because they thought it was too long. That song sings quickly, though. You could get through 10-plus stanzas in no time.

It's also a great text.

bbbbbbb · Apr 20, 2010

This reminds me of some old Lutheran hymns which move thematically verse by verse. An example would be one in which the first verse starts with Creation and the final verse ends with the Second Coming. When you drop intermediate verses the progression is destroyed and you end up with a very disjointed hymn.

dcolgan3 · Dec 23, 2011

Sorry to revive this thread a year later, but I think we're missing an important part of what's going on here.

It has a lot to do with one's own theology before one can say if a hymn is "theologically bad". For the record, I'm an ELCA Lutheran, and I believe wholly in Lutheran teachings and theology. Because of those beliefs, I am offended by some well-known hymns.

For example, "In the Garden" - "And He walks with me, and He talks with me; and He tells me that I am His own. And the joy we share as we terry there; none other has ever known."

- OK, that's ridiculous. As a Lutheran, I believe that ALL believers share in the fellowship of Christ. Who are we to think that "non other has ever known?" We're simply not that special. It makes no sense.

Another is the good old "I Have Decided to Follow Jesus". This tops my list. Lutheran theology clearly teaches that Christ chose us at our Baptism. We did not have a choice in the matter! Who are we to think we can just go and decide who our savior is?....

My point is this; the above hymns are theologically bad in the Lutheran realm, but are perhaps quite relevant to a Baptist, or someone else with differing beliefs. I could go on with more examples, but you get the idea...

jaigner · Dec 24, 2011

dcolgan3 said:
For example, "In the Garden" - "And He walks with me, and He talks with me; and He tells me that I am His own. And the joy we share as we terry there; none other has ever known."

- OK, that's ridiculous. As a Lutheran, I believe that ALL believers share in the fellowship of Christ. Who are we to think that "non other has ever known?" We're simply not that special. It makes no sense.

Another is the good old "I Have Decided to Follow Jesus". This tops my list. Lutheran theology clearly teaches that Christ chose us at our Baptism. We did not have a choice in the matter! Who are we to think we can just go and decide who our savior is?....

My point is this; the above hymns are theologically bad in the Lutheran realm, but are perhaps quite relevant to a Baptist, or someone else with differing beliefs. I could go on with more examples, but you get the idea...

I appreciate your points and your openness. I would assert that "In the Garden," and "I have Decided" are stupid, horribly theology no matter what your faith tradition. They make no sense.

And there are some hymns that, while they would make sense for Lutherans, Methodists wouldn't sing them. While I affirm that, I still believe that the bulk of good hymns are evangelical enough that evangelicals in all traditions can sing them.

Blessings and Merry Christmas.

redeemedbychrist · Jan 17, 2012

Have you tried the

"The believer hymn book"

I have never had a problem with the doctrine in this hymn book

memphispiano · Aug 9, 2012

Rich,
I feel like you are WAY off base on this whole posting. Yes, there are some hymns with questionable theology...but you are fishing real hard to find it and your catches are a real stretch. There is NO questionable theology in "Pass me not". Ms. Crosby was expressing the emotion of a human heart. This cry has been repeated thousands of times at altars and in prayer closets. It is the biblical cry of the woman with the issue of blood...etc. The same holds for "Is my name written there?" The theological questions you raise are not suggested in the songs. You question them and then refer to "How great is our God" as a theological masterpiece. Well, forgive me, but there is very little theology in that song. It is filled with cliches all of which say the same thing (that He's great). It never says anything He did that makes Him great...then says "name above all names" but is apparently afraid to say what that name is ("Jesus"). I, too, like the song but if you think it is theologically deep, you are sadly mistaken. Compare it to "How Great Thou Art" from which it copies. "How Great Thou Art" is filled with complete thoughts...verse 1: His creation verse 2: His death/sacrifice verse 3: His return. That, my friend, is theology.

StevenHu · Oct 1, 2012

Rich48 said:
Here is one example:

One of the greatest hymn writers ever was Fanny Crosby. But one of her hymns really bothers me, and that one is "Pass Me Not." Look at the chorus:

Savior, Savior,
Hear my humble cry;
While on others Thou art calling,
Do not pass me by.

Now-attempt to reconcile that with:

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

When, oh when, did Christ ever pass anyone who calledl up His precious name?? The answer is NEVER!

Rich

But this is not about salvation. Look at this portion:

Thou the spring of all my comfort,
More than life to me,
Whom have I on earth beside Thee,
Whom in Heavn but Thee.

This is not the outlook of someone who is not saved.

StevenHu · Oct 1, 2012

Rich48 said:
Bad theology does not just apply to some hymns-it's in all genre of music. Here is a praise and worship song that bothers me.

Twila Paris has written some wonderful music, but this one is, at least to me, questionable:

I EXALT THEE

For Thou O Lord art high above all the earth
Thou art exalted far above all gods

What other gods? There is but one God, and there is no god for Him to be exalted above. The lyrics seem to imply that there are lesser gods that He is above.

Rich

But any time someone loves something more than the true God, that becomes a (false) god to him. This line isn't about there being several true gods, but acknowledges that the world of full of religions and gods of man's making, but the Jehovah God is above them all. Besides, I think she's borrowing from the Bible which also speaks of all gods.

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