B.c.

Someone just asked me what believers had to do before Christ was born in order to get into heaven.

The question was "was the gift of salvation free then or was salvation only possible through strict obedience?"

I answered, but I'm not completely satisfied with what I said honestly.

It's embarrassing that I'm as rusty as I am.

I'm curious as to what others think.

Thanks in advance!
~Lainie

PS....the person that asked me this is quite young, but sharp as a tack. He asked me because he read the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man and he was curious what Lazarus had DONE in order to get to heaven since Christ hadn't died for his sins yet. (And yes, I did explain that it's a parable). The question is a good one though.

God is not bound by Time. Abraham was saved the same way as we are. Hebrews makes this clear.

JM

When people were going through the motions of the sanctuary service, they were in essence attributing their faith and obedience to the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world (Jesus Christ). Rev. 13:8

Of course, most didn't realize the magnitude of the sanctuary service. However, whether they understood it or not, they were still doing what was required of them by God to incur their freedom from the penalty of their transgressions.

Jesus dying on the cross brought to light everything that these acts pointed to. So even though Jesus didn't die while they were doing these things, they still had to rely on His sacrifice just as we do today as a means to enter into heaven. See also Heb. 11

Hence, faith without works is dead.

woobadooba said:

When people were going through the motions of the sanctuary service, they were in essence attributing their faith and obedience to the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world (Jesus Christ). Rev. 13:8

Of course, most didn't realize the magnitude of the sanctuary service. However, whether they understood it or not, they were still doing what was required of them by God to incur their freedom from the penalty of their transgressions.

Jesus dying on the cross brought to light everything that these acts pointed to. So even though Jesus didn't die while they were doing these things, they still had to rely on His sacrifice just as we do today as a means to enter into heaven. See also Heb. 11

Hence, faith without works is dead.

Click to expand...

It is to me amazing what lengths some Christians go to to explain the grace of God in saving whoever He wants to save. In the above we have an example of righteousness by works. It is stated that the people going through the ceremonial functions of the sanctuary while having no conception that they pointed to Christ, they were doing what was "required" to incur their freedom from penalty. They were as the above says relying on Christ's sacrifice though they had no conception of that sacrifice. So they had faith to carry out the things God required them to do, apparently that was to rely upon a sacrifice that they knew nothing of its future meaning. That of course makes no sense so we are left with works salvation, where only the actions of completing rituals is necessary for salvation. Something that the pharisees were exceptionally well at doing and something that Jesus called them hypocrites for doing.

On top of the sheer nonsense of the above position is the fact that nowhere in the New Testament do we get the idea that salvation was attributed to the Old Testament people based upon their carrying out rituals. It was always faith in God, never faith in a ritual or even faith in the symbols of the rituals.

In both cases it is the faith in the kind of person God is rather then faith in some kind of actions to head off a penalty. When we look at the way the Penal atonement theory has to be explained it becomes really hard to continue to accept this middle ages theory of atonement, yet most Christians never even question it. It demands a legal fiction of substitution and then another fiction such as the view above about what people had no conception of.

It never ceases to amaze the lengths some people will go to twist and distort what Christians have said in regards to what the Bible teaches.

Righteousness is always and only by faith. It has never been by works. Your works do, however, prove who you really love. If you love God with all your heart, mind and strength and your neighbor as yourself then you will turn away from your sins.

Why would Christ come and die if there was some other way?

"11 (Gal. 3:8; 1 Cor. 10:4). Only One Gospel.--There is no such contrast as is often claimed to exist between the Old and the New Testament, the law of God and the gospel of Christ, the requirements of the Jewish and those of the Christian dispensation. Every soul saved in the former dispensation was saved by Christ as verily as we are saved by Him today. Patriarchs and prophets were Christians. The gospel promise was given to the first pair in Eden, when they had by transgression separated themselves from God. The gospel was preached to Abraham. The Hebrews all drank of that spiritual Rock, which was Christ (ST Sept. 14, 1882). {6BC 1061.8}"

In fact according to Ellen White such patriarchs as Enoch were Adventists. Which may explain why we take our doctrines from the Bible rather then from EGW, or at least we should.

Jesus Christ is God, He came to reveal the love, forgiveness and reconciliation of God. Penal theory often ignores the primary meaning of the incarnation in favor of the fiction that Jesus was paying a penalty, apparently to God even though He is God. And even though there is no place in the New Testament that says Jesus paid a penalty, nor does it say that Jesus received God's wrath upon Himself but you will see read and hear those concepts frequently presented by Christians.

The Funny thing is I have presented the Biblical view, that is that we both old and new Testament people are saved by Grace through faith in God, yet some consider that to be me twisting what the Bible teaches. It is no doubt the problem that tradition has in stifling Christians very philosophy.

TrustAndObey said:

Someone just asked me what believers had to do before Christ was born in order to get into heaven.

The question was "was the gift of salvation free then or was salvation only possible through strict obedience?"

I answered, but I'm not completely satisfied with what I said honestly.

It's embarrassing that I'm as rusty as I am.

I'm curious as to what others think.

Thanks in advance!
~Lainie

PS....the person that asked me this is quite young, but sharp as a tack. He asked me because he read the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man and he was curious what Lazarus had DONE in order to get to heaven since Christ hadn't died for his sins yet. (And yes, I did explain that it's a parable). The question is a good one though.

Click to expand...

I believe that salvation is just the same now as it always has been.

If performance was part of it back in B.C. times then we have a major problem on our hands.

It is just the same as in the last days, performance does not save but it does show where we are at in our Christian walk.

sometimes we try to pluck apart peoples faith withour fully understanding when or if their ready to hear about it. If ROnald McDonald created his own religion we would all be over-weight singing along to the fry guys all the while the burger king guy religion would find something wrong with the color of ronalds rouge make-up. EGW was inspirational in her writings and she took a big chance being a women in a world of men. The adventist religion is basically a mixture of different people who have taken situations and interpretations and we can't put anyone of them on the hotseat without acknowleding they don't want anything but to spread the gospel. SO before Christ the answers were all there but without the temlpe dues most people were in the dark Thanks to Jesus he opened up the message the way it was supposed to be heard. can you imagine if we had to sacrifice something everytime we sinned there would be nothing left in the world and my barn definately would be empty. I think thats what GOD wanted from us to show us HEY i cant afford to sacrifice anything more and using livestock is a grim reminder well If I dont stop sinnig then my barn will be empty and back then you sin then you don't eat. GET it

I'm still reading and listening.

How I answered this young man was very much in line with what I'm reading here, but as we all can see, there's obviously differences of opinion.

I'll keep reading the comments that come in, but I do think the answer is getting clearer and clearer. Thanks guys.

Gal 3:1-6 You stupid Galatians! I told you exactly how Jesus Christ was nailed to a cross. Has someone now put an evil spell on you? (2) I want to know only one thing. How were you given God's Spirit? Was it by obeying the Law of Moses or by hearing about Christ and having faith in him? (3) How can you be so stupid? Do you think that by yourself you can complete what God's Spirit started in you? (4) Have you gone through all of this for nothing? Is it all really for nothing? (5) God gives you his Spirit and works miracles in you. But does he do this because you obey the Law of Moses or because you have heard about Christ and have faith in him? (6) The Scriptures say that God accepted Abraham because Abraham had faith.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

All believers are saved by grace. The OT believers looked forward and believed the savior would come. The NT believers looked back and believed the savior had come. Neither saw Him, but they all shall walk by faith, not by sight.

Hebrews 11 sums it up pretty well to.