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autonomous interpretation

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rmwilliamsll

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this thread is a response to:
By rejecting all of man's evidence that contradicts the Bible I'm stating that God and His Word are superior to man and his findings. I'm wrong when someone or the Holy Spirit can show me biblically what I believe the Bible to say is incorrect.
from: http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=28265446&postcount=4

this is exactly what is wrong with the currently dominating hermeneutic of solo Scriptura or "just me and my Bible".

Not only is it extraordinarily self centered* and a claim of autonomy and the right to judge but it enshrines a faulty idea of how we are to understand the Scriptures.

I think the easiest way to demonstrate this is to think about how i would make such claims.

God is sovereign and His desires and principles are both good and true. As in the image of God i can understand the truth of some of these things but my experience of them will never be complete or exhaustive because i am finite. But my major problem is not that i am finite but that i am sinful. A significant part of what i think is true is not, a signficant amount of the things i do thinking they are the right things are not.

My responsibility then is to understand the Scriptures as closely to what God intends for me as i can, knowing i will never even be very good at it. Therefore i must always reexamine what i think, be aware and searching out things that will help me change my faulty interpretations and challenge the sin that remains within**. I need to look at history and theology for examples of brethren that had a good understanding from God about these things and learn from them. i need to always be reforming, to identify and root out the sin that remains not just in my life but in my thinking.

i am not a good judge of how to read Scripture, i am neither bright enough, driven or ambitious enough, nor do i have the time to do all of this by myself. I am consciously part of an interpretive community that speaks to these issues. I consciously put their understanding and interpretation above my own and struggle to make it my own, learning and discovering what they have to teach me. if i differ i am probably wrong, even though i can not see how(at this moment), my prayers are consistently that God would help me understand as they do, to give me just a piece of this wisdom so i can see these things rightly.

i find it sad that so much of the current evangelical community has accepted this false notion of self-interpretation***, this false notion of solA Scriptura transmogrifying it into "just me and my Bible alone".

it is no wonder that all the attempts here to deeply pursue the meaning of specific verses fractures into a million different interpretations, for these ideas lead directly to solipism. each man under his own tree, reading his own Bible and interpreting it as a autonomous being without any responsibilities towards a community or other people.

sad.
wrong.

notes:
* essentially "you must prove to me" vs. i need to submit and learn from God in the form of other people in a community talking about these things over a long period of time. the default condition is expressly stated to be to "reject all of man's evidence" that contradicts his current interpretation of the Bible which is assumed to be correct and corresponds directly and intimately to God's own interpretation. no separation of "my interpretation" from the very Word of God, they are essentially the same.

**the responsibility is not for the world to come knocking at my door with things but for me to go out looking to correct the errors inside of me that i know are there but invisible to me now.

***the default is that i am right, that any changes to be made have to present themselves to my consciousness, i am not looking or seek for them, just expecting God to cater to me on my conditions, in my good time.
 

cerafim

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I'm reminded as I formulate this post of the times of Jesus when he taught the Jewish communities in which he lived and worked. Oddly, he spoke simplistically, holding great revelation back from those who would not understand.

Your concept is one with great similarity. Factually speaking the Bible is the single most authoritative source we [modern world] posess today. So it's not altogether incorrect to state that me and my Bible can go it alone.

However there is an element that God never intended you to 'go it alone'. He built communities for fellowship, teaching, sheparding...we call them churches, where the truth could be taught. One challenge that I have for you is that truth is absolute. True is always true, and where some might struggle with the interpretation thereof it's properties remain constant. With that said however, most would believe or are taught that the Bible requires no explanation. Only diligent study and examination of ones own heart.

With all of that said, I would offer this litmus test for your post. First, in reading the scriptures, whos responsibility is it to reveal meaning? Mine or the spirits? This by no means a fully inclusive litmus test, gives rise to this testament which is:

I can only know what God has given me the personal revelation to understand. Mine is to do and be blessed by the means in which he chooses, for I am to submit even as Christ submits to the Father.

In short, if I do the work, and worry less about the results, then God's sovereign will has the ability to work without US getting in the way. JMHExperience
 
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Mallon

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I'm reminded as I formulate this post of the times of Jesus when he taught the Jewish communities in which he lived and worked. Oddly, he spoke simplistically, holding great revelation back from those who would not understand.
You mean with parables that were not meant to be taken literally?
 
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rmwilliamsll

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I guess when I read the parables I feel they're defuct of complexity.

Also common commentaries on the use Jesus' teaching by parables are compared with the vs that states that he would use the simple to confound the wise...

Need more?

i'd suspect that the problem with not finding complexity in Jesus's parables is more a problem for the interpreter then for the material. There are a wide range of commentators who had no problem finding much wisdom and depth in them.
 
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cerafim

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i'd suspect that the problem with not finding complexity in Jesus's parables is more a problem for the interpreter then for the material. There are a wide range of commentators who had no problem finding much wisdom and depth in them.
I'm not sure why it's a problem. Is this banter for banters' sake? I never said anything derrogatory about the depth or the wisdom contained in the parables.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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I'm not sure why it's a problem. Is this banter for banters' sake? I never said anything derrogatory about the depth or the wisdom contained in the parables.

when I read the parables I feel they're defuct of complexity.

assuming of course that you misspelled "defunct"
 
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livingword26

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The original post seems to me to put all emphasis on learning truth in the hands of other people. Does the bible not tell us that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. Indeed we need the body of Christ, and God works through others to bring us healing and truth. But the default learning process is on the Holy Spirit, who is our comforter and teacher. It is God who breaks us and molds us and teaches us. Submitting to "God in the form of other people" is only as reliable as the "other people's" relationship with God. Jesus died to bring us into relationship with God. Denying this student teacher relationship, in favor of doctrines of others leads to false doctrines and lop sided doctrines that deny large portions of scripture. This is the sign of a cult, that they use the bible to support their doctrine, yet are unwilling to address the portions of scripture that are in conflict with their beliefs. I have yet to find a doctrine that does not do this. Calvinism-Arminianism, Catholicism-Protestantism, Legalism-Universalism, and others, all apply the bible to fit what they have been taught by others, departing from the truth, of the wholeness of scripture, as revealed by the Holy Ghost.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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But the default learning process is on the Holy Spirit, who is our comforter and teacher. It is God who breaks us and molds us and teaches us. Submitting to "God in the form of other people" is only as reliable as the "other people's" relationship with God. Jesus died to bring us into relationship with God. Denying this student teacher relationship, in favor of doctrines of others leads to false doctrines and lop sided doctrines that deny large portions of scripture.

there are at least two issues with this.
the first is the means that the Holy Spirit uses, i'd propose that one major means is the elders in the faith.

the second is that there exist lots of people making the same claim that they are lead by the Spirit into all truth, and each is teaching something different and saying that those others are mislead.
 
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Deamiter

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i'd suspect that the problem with not finding complexity in Jesus's parables is more a problem for the interpreter then for the material. There are a wide range of commentators who had no problem finding much wisdom and depth in them.
To quickly analyze this statement, it is clear that mswilliamsll is contrasting your finding little complexity in the parables with other people's finding much depth and wisdom in the parables.

While wisdom can certainly be simple, depth generally cannot. Are you then denying that there is a complex message behind the simple stories? Would the moral teachings in the parables be clear even if you hadn't the slightest knowledge about the culture?

Instead of refusing to acknowledge a valid criticism of your expressed position (and clarify your position or rebuff the criticism) why have you chosen to ignore it as "banter for banter's sake?"
 
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livingword26

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But the default learning process is on the Holy Spirit, who is our comforter and teacher. It is God who breaks us and molds us and teaches us. Submitting to "God in the form of other people" is only as reliable as the "other people's" relationship with God. Jesus died to bring us into relationship with God. Denying this student teacher relationship, in favor of doctrines of others leads to false doctrines and lop sided doctrines that deny large portions of scripture.

there are at least two issues with this.
the first is the means that the Holy Spirit uses, i'd propose that one major means is the elders in the faith.

True enough, that is definately a way God works, through the body of Christ, but that does not mean He does not teach us Himself, or that this is the most important relationship

the second is that there exist lots of people making the same claim that they are lead by the Spirit into all truth, and each is teaching something different and saying that those others are mislead.
Thats kind of my point. Jesus told us before He ascended, that false teachers and false prophets would come amougst us. That is why we must turn to God for wisdom and truth.
 
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livingword26

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jereth

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I think that if you read the OP carefully, you'll see that rmwilliams was not opposed to the work of the Holy Spirit, but instead the alarmingly common concept that as individuals we can expect to easily find the truth all by ourselves.

Yes, the Bible says the Holy Spirit will lead us into truth. (I assume you are referring to John 16:13.) But this statement of Christ cannot be misapplied to private Bible study. It is an assertion that the Spirit will lead the Church as a whole into the truth, as indicated by the fact that Jesus is addressing the apostolic leaders of the Church. In fact the Bible nowhere endorses the notion that I can find the truth all by myself. See Ephesians 2:19-22.

We would do well to pay attention to the lessons of church history. The doctrines of Christendom were established over centuries of discussion and deliberation by the church. Contrary to what you imply, cults are much more likely to form when a group rejects established Christian tradition, and has a go at interpreting the Bible "freshly", outside of established orthodoxy -- eg. Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses, Christadelphians, Seventh-day Adventists, and so on.

Yes the Church is fallible, but I am much more fallible if I go it alone.
 
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livingword26

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We also are told to measure what we are taught against the scripture, not to decipher the scripture by what we have been taught:

Acts 17:11
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
KJV

Holy Ghost scriptures:

1 John 2:27
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
KJV


John 14:26
26 But the Comforter , which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
KJV


John 16:13
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
KJV


2 Peter 1:21
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost .
KJV


1 Cor 2:13-14
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
KJV
 
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livingword26

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Yes the Church is fallible, but I am much more fallible if I go it alone.

I am totaly fallible, but God is capable of revealing truth to me. Through others? Yes, but can I count on others to be any less fallble than myself? God must be my source for truth.
 
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