Atheism and Ghosts

Radrook · Dec 6, 2016

Eudaimonist said:
In fiction, anything goes. I love Middle-earth, and it is Catholicism warmed over.

Q isn't God. He's a superalien that had presumably evolved within the natural universe. Star Trek is filled with such natural super-beings. Q may be powerful, but he isn't divine.

Nah, I liked Stargate: Universe, and the show was hinting strongly that not only was there a Creator God, but that they had discovered evidence of that God potentially strong enough to convince a skeptical atheist sci fi fans.

I have no problem with gods in science fiction.

eudaimonia,

Mark

You aren't talking about pure science fiction. You are talking about a merging of fantasy and science fiction where goblins, gnomes, centaurs, and mythological gods romp around sometimes armed with state of art technological weapons. In short, the very nature of the genre makes the inclusion of gods trivial.

BTW
Offering your personal preferences and predilections as an example of all atheists is called scanty and unrepresentative evidence

I never claimed that Q was a supernatural being. I said that he had the power typical of a god and if he had been portrayed as a genuine god within a purely sci fi genre as Star Trek is then it would have been an issue with most atheists.

TheOldWays · Dec 6, 2016

Radrook said:
I said that he had the power typical of a god and if he had been portrayed as a genuine god within a purely sci fi genre as Star Trek is then it would have been an issue with most atheists.

Probably not. Trek fans are cool with gods.

quatona · Dec 6, 2016

cloudyday2 said:
The logic is is that most atheists do not believe in anything supernatural - they are metaphysical naturalists.

This appears to be a logical fallacy - if I am not missing anything.
Most atheists don´t believe in Gods because there is no evidence for the existence of Gods.
Now, let´s assume there is/were evidence for ghosts, there´d still be no evidence for Gods.
Just like theists don´t necessarily believe in ghosts, fairies or Thetans.

An analogy might be belief in intelligent extra terrestrial life visiting Earth.

A more proper analogy would be: If there were evidence for extraterrestial life, a-Marsians would be more likely to believe in life on Mars.
It doesn´t make sense.

EDIT: You've heard the saying "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"?

Yes. (I don´t consider this a particularly well-worded bonmot - because I don´t know what extra-ordinary evidence would be.)

Certain claims require a person to completely alter his/her world view.

Yes.

A person's world view determines what is ordinary and what is extraordinary, and that determines the quality of evidence required for belief in all claims of that class.

I´m not seeing how - if I became convinced that there´s a "supernatural" realm - I would suddenly believe in each and every supposedly "supernatural" entity. Each of these entities would still require evidence in their own right.

quatona · Dec 6, 2016

Radrook said:
Atheists aren't opposed to the supernatural power as long as the word God or gods is excluded.

Us atheists are in sore need of Christians telling us what we think.

awitch · Dec 6, 2016

Radrook said:
Atheists aren't opposed to the supernatural power as long as the word God or gods is excluded. Look at the series Star Trek the New Generation. You have the entity Q who is practically almighty. Yet atheists who watch never take umbrage with it because Q isn't called God. Had the Q been referred to as the creator God then atheists would have severely criticized it as religious propaganda unfitting a sci fi program.

Atheists don't have a problem with Q because they know it's a fictional character in a fictional universe for entertainment purposes. No one is saying that Q is an actual entity.

Radrook · Dec 6, 2016

awitch said:
Atheists don't have a problem with Q because they know it's a fictional character in a fictional universe for entertainment purposes. No one is saying that Q is an actual entity.

Atheists don't have a problem with the propagation of religion?
Could have fooled me by the way they argued with me for a full five months only to declare at the end that they were arguing out of sheer unadulterated hatred for any concept of religion being propagated in any way manner or form.

Radrook · Dec 6, 2016

quatona said:
Us atheists are in sore need of Christians telling us what we think.

How atheists think is really no mystery since they are very vociferous in telling us theists exactly what they think at the slightest opportunity and at the most unlikeliest of places.

Radrook · Dec 6, 2016

TheOldWays said:
Probably not. Trek fans are cool with gods.

As long as the gods turn out to be aliens at the end as they always do in order to keep things atheistically correct.

TheOldWays · Dec 6, 2016

Radrook said:
As long as the gods turn out to be aliens at the end as they always do in order to keep things atheistically correct.

not really. most atheists rally against the Christian idea of God. In Star Trek, Christianity would probably have died out so those god/gods would be cool beans.

cloudyday2 · Dec 6, 2016

quatona said:
This appears to be a logical fallacy - if I am not missing anything.
Most atheists don´t believe in Gods because there is no evidence for the existence of Gods.
Now, let´s assume there is/were evidence for ghosts, there´d still be no evidence for Gods.
Just like theists don´t necessarily believe in ghosts, fairies or Thetans.

A more proper analogy would be: If there were evidence for extraterrestial life, a-Marsians would be more likely to believe in life on Mars.
It doesn´t make sense.

Yes. (I don´t consider this a particularly well-worded bonmot - because I don´t know what extra-ordinary evidence would be.)

Yes.

I´m not seeing how - if I became convinced that there´s a "supernatural" realm - I would suddenly believe in each and every supposedly "supernatural" entity. Each of these entities would still require evidence in their own right.

O.k. we will have to agree to disagree I think.

awitch · Dec 6, 2016

Radrook said:
Atheists don't have a problem with the propagation of religion?
Could have fooled me by the way they argued with me for a full five months only to declare at the end that they were arguing out of sheer unadulterated hatred for any concept of religion being propagated in any way manner or form.

I know plenty of atheists and seculars who couldn't care less about religion as long as it's practice doesn't violate the Constitution.

cloudyday2 · Dec 6, 2016

awitch said:
I know plenty of atheists and seculars who couldn't care less about religion as long as it's practice doesn't violate the Constitution.

One problem is that the Constitution is understood differently at different times and by different types of people.

The legal system is like a religion IMO. I have been called for jury duty almost every year for over 10 years. It is like going to church. I have to sit there quietly and watch movies about how wonderful the jury system is. Then I listen to lawyers trying to tell bad jokes. The potential jurors answer "yes sir". I'm the only honest person there, and I tell them exactly how I feel about it. LOL (I have never been selected.)

awitch · Dec 6, 2016

cloudyday2 said:
One problem is that the Constitution is understood differently at different times and by different types of people.

To some extent that's true; it certainly has changed, but there's a very well defined process for that change. The judiciary interprets the laws and sets precedents for the future. If you don't like the outcome, then you have to get congress has to go back and revoke the law or adjust it with additional laws. While the system isn't perfect, the interpretation isn't changing wildly day by day or by region.

Eudaimonist · Dec 6, 2016

Radrook said:
You aren't talking about pure science fiction.

Star Trek was never "pure science fiction".

BTW
Offering your personal preferences and predilections as an example of all atheists is called scanty and unrepresentative evidence

Your mind-reading is not evidence of anything. You are mischaracterizing atheists.

At least, I am one.

I never claimed that Q was a supernatural being. I said that he had the power typical of a god and if he had been portrayed as a genuine god within a purely sci fi genre as Star Trek is then it would have been an issue with most atheists.

The only problem might have been a concern that Gene Roddenberry's vision was being tainted. However, I didn't see much outrage at the timeless godlike beings in Deep Space Nine, and that is a beloved Star Trek series.

I don't think that you are predicting the opinions of atheists very well.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Eudaimonist · Dec 6, 2016

Radrook said:
Atheists don't have a problem with the propagation of religion?

I don't have a problem with the propagation of religion, and stand in support of freedom of religion.

Thank you for telling me what I think.

As long as the gods turn out to be aliens at the end as they always do in order to keep things atheistically correct.

Actually, I was hoping to see Stargate Universe continue so we could see if there actually was some convincing evidence of God in the storyline. I would not have minded if that had turned out to be the case.

Thank you for telling me what shows I'm supposed to like. What would I do without you?

eudaimonia,

Mark

quatona · Dec 7, 2016

Radrook said:
How atheists think is really no mystery

...and yet you get it wrong most of the time.

Radrook · Dec 7, 2016

quatona said:
...and yet you get it wrong most of the time.

In what way?

Radrook · Dec 7, 2016

Eudaimonist said:
I don't have a problem with the propagation of religion, and stand in support of freedom of religion.

Thank you for telling me what I think.

Actually, I was hoping to see Stargate Universe continue so we could see if there actually was some convincing evidence of God in the storyline. I would not have minded if that had turned out to be the case.

Thank you for telling me what shows I'm supposed to like. What would I do without you?

eudaimonia,

Mark

I don't personally know you so I can only go by what I generally perceive to be the MAIN attitude.
It's called making an inductive leap based on a persistent pattern.

Radrook · Dec 7, 2016

TheOldWays said:
not really. most atheists rally against the Christian idea of God. In Star Trek, Christianity would probably have died out so those god/gods would be cool beans.

On what exactly are you basing your assumption that Christianity is dead in the Star trek universe you envision?
Is it that mankind comes across other sentient intelligent creatures?
Well, umm, that can be explained via a creator who made them as well via your sacred evolution abiogenesis ideas.
So it doesn't necessarily follow.

Radrook · Dec 7, 2016

Eudaimonist said:
Star Trek was never "pure science fiction".

Your mind-reading is not evidence of anything. You are mischaracterizing atheists.

At least, I am one.

The only problem might have been a concern that Gene Roddenberry's vision was being tainted. However, I didn't see much outrage at the timeless godlike beings in Deep Space Nine, and that is a beloved Star Trek series.

I don't think that you are predicting the opinions of atheists very well.

eudaimonia,

Mark

I never claimed that Star trek with its silly statistically socially silly virtually impossible supposedly alien scenarios and its unexplained bogus technology involving disintegrating human in order to transport them and its parallel worlds identical to earth in social ways even to the point of depicting a gangster society similar to Al Capone's is hard, or pure science fiction.

BTW
Agnostics are very amenable to any film that depicts gods or a God and have no conceptual trouble with it at all.

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