Psalm 27
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This pastor teaches on this subject wellTHE OLIVET DISCOURSE
Addressed to: The disciples of Jesus (Luke 21:8; Matthew 24:1; Mark 13:1-4).
Subjects:
(i) The coming destruction of the temple (Matthew 24:1-2; Mark 13:1-2; Luke 21:5-6).
(ii) The coming of the Son of man (Matthew 24:3, 30, 36-39; Mark 13:26, 32, 35; Luke 21:27, 31, 36).
(iii) The coming of the kingdom of Christ (Matthew 24:14 & Matthew 25:1; Mark 13:10; Luke 21:31).
(iv) The tribulation of the disciples of Jesus in the days leading up to the coming of the Son of Man (Matthew 24:9-13; Mark 13:9, 11-13; Luke 21:12-19 & 27-28).
(v) The coming distress of the inhabitants of Jerusalem at the time of the coming of the wrath of God upon Jerusalem (Luke 21:20-24) *
* Whereas Luke uses the words distress and wrath to describe (v) above (it's notable that Luke does not use the word tribulation to describe it), neither Matthew nor Mark use the word wrath in their records of the Olivet Discourse, but only the words tribulation or affliction.
* The reader of Matthew’s record of the Olivet Discourse who is NOT being intellectually dishonest with himself will be able to see and acknowledge the fact that Matthew’s record, after introducing the theme of the tribulation of the disciples of Jesus in Matthew 24:9, joins verses 9 through 31 together into one long passage by employing the words, “then”, “and”, “but”, “wherefore/therefore”, “for”, and “immediately after”.
Complete list of New Testament mentions of persecution and tribulation:-
1. Persecution
(i) Of Jesus: John 5:16
(ii) Of the woman who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13
(iii) Of Christians:-
Matthew 5: 19 & 12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1: 13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11.
(iv) Of unbelievers:- None.
2. Tribulation
(i) Of apostles and Christians:-
Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9, 21 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:19, 24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3; 1 Thessalonians 3: 4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14.
(ii) Of unbelievers:-
Romans 2:9 (everyone who does evil); 2 Thessalonians 1:6 (tribulation coming upon the wicked world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints).
3. Great Tribulation (Greek: megas thlipsis)
Note: Only three times in the entire New Testament do we find the Greek word megas (great) employed to describe the intensity of the tribulation (Greek: thlipsis).
(i) Of Christians:-
Revelation 2:22 (those who follow Jezebel's doctrines).
Revelation 7:14 (the multitude of saints who came out of great tribulation).
(ii) Identity of victims disputed by Christians:-
Matthew 24:21 (tribulation is mentioned in Matthew 24:9, 21-22 & 29, where after introducing the theme of the tribulation of the disciples of Jesus in Matthew 24:9, Matthew's gospel joins the passage from verse 9 through 31 together into one long passage by employing the words, “then”, “and”, “but”, “wherefore/therefore”, “for”, and “immediately after”).
AT THE FOREFRONT OF JESUS' MIND
IMO this shows that the theme at the forefront of Jesus’ mind when He gave the Olivet Discourse was clearly NOT the coming destruction of the temple, nor was it the distress that was to be experienced by the inhabitants of Jerusalem when the wrath of God was to come upon Jerusalem in the day it was was surrounded by armies. At the forefront of His mind was the tribulation that would be experienced by the saints in the days leading up to the coming of the Son of man.
I believe the same can be said regarding the Lord's Apocalypse.
Yes, it is. What is your point exactly as it relates to what we've been discussing?Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
This is the New Covenant through Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
Just commenting on your comment below.Yes, it is. What is your point exactly as it relates to what we've been discussing?
You quoted Jeremiah. What does that have to do with whether or not Jesus ever spoke about a new covenant age or old covenant age?Just commenting on your comment below.
"He never spoke of a new covenant age or old covenant age."
OK. Thanks for engaging.You quoted Jeremiah. What does that have to do with whether or not Jesus ever spoke about a new covenant age or old covenant age?
I'm not saying He never spoke about the old covenant or new covenant in case that's what you're thinking I meant. I'm saying that He never spoke of an old covenant age or new covenant age. He only spoke of this temporal age and the eternal age to come. Whenever He spoke of the end of the age He was talking about the end of this temporal age.
So, you have no interest in backing up the claims you make in this thread, such as the one you made in post #4? Okay then. To me, if you make a claim like you made on a forum like this then you should be willing to back it up, but that's your choice.OK. Thanks for engaging.
Blessings.
I already did as well as a few others on this thread.So, you have no interest in backing up the claims you make in this thread, such as the one you made in post #4? Okay then. To me, if you make a claim like you made on a forum like this then you should be willing to back it up, but that's your choice.
I don't use Facebook.
What you said in post #4 indicates that you believe the end of the age occurred in 70 AD when the Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem. When have you done anything in this thread to back up the idea that 70 AD was the end of an age? What age? Where does scripture teach that 70 AD was the end of an age? I've shown you that the end of the age that Jesus talked about was the end of this temporal age when people get married and they die. Where have you done anything to show otherwise?I already did as well as a few others on this thread.
Blessings
The age of Temple Judiasim. The age of the Old Covenant. The age of the Aronic Priesthood. The age where the law was written on stone and not on the heart. Shall I go on ?What age?
The eternal age started at the Cross. There is no waiting for a particular time. Physical death is the end of the temporal for all humanity. Eternity is either in Paradise or sheol. There is no resurrection of the dead between sheol and the eternal lake of fire. Just The GWT where they are sentenced and placed into Eternity. Those in Paradise are in eternal life already.You quoted Jeremiah. What does that have to do with whether or not Jesus ever spoke about a new covenant age or old covenant age?
I'm not saying He never spoke about the old covenant or new covenant in case that's what you're thinking I meant. I'm saying that He never spoke of an old covenant age or new covenant age. He only spoke of this temporal age and the eternal age to come. Whenever He spoke of the end of the age He was talking about the end of this temporal age.
I'm asking you to show me in scripture where it speaks of the old covenant as an age. What is your proof to show that when Jesus referred to the end of the age, He was talking about the end of the old covenant age rather than "this age" that He talked about in Luke 20:34-36 during which people get married and they die?The age of Temple Judiasim. The age of the Old Covenant. The age of the Aronic Priesthood. The age where the law was written on stone and not on the heart. Shall I go on ?
Jesus Christ of Nazareth replaced all of this.
And here's more nonsense from you, as usual. The eternal age to come did not start at the cross. It will not start until the new heavens and new earth are ushered in because it will be the time that begins when the resurrection of the dead occurs, which will be at the last trumpet when Christ returns (1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Cor 15:50-54, 1 Thess 4:14-17). The age to come is marked by people no longer getting married and people no longer dying (Luke 20:34-36). That clearly has not yet happened and won't happen until the new heavens and new earth are ushered in (Rev 21:1-4).The eternal age started at the Cross. There is no waiting for a particular time. Physical death is the end of the temporal for all humanity. Eternity is either in Paradise or sheol. There is no resurrection of the dead between sheol and the eternal lake of fire. Just The GWT where they are sentenced and placed into Eternity. Those in Paradise are in eternal life already.
You are right there are no covenant ages involved. No periods of time either. The temporal is all the time allotted. After physical death, eternity does start. Death is just as much eternal as life is, after physical death.
The majority of humanity has already spent more time in their eternal state, than they did the few temporal years they had physically on earth.
The Old Covenant ended when Jesus Christ of Nazareth died. Temple Judaism ceased in AD70.I'm asking you to show me in scripture where it speaks of the old covenant as an age. What is your proof to show that when Jesus referred to the end of the age, He was talking about the end of the old covenant age rather than "this age" that He talked about in Luke 20:34-36 during which people get married and they die?
I have a serious problem with the idea that the old covenant ended in 70 AD because I strongly believe that Jesus made the old covenant obsolete and no longer in effect by shedding His blood on the cross. That is what the following passage indicates:
Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Do you agree that Jesus established the new covenant and put it into effect with His death on the cross? The veil of the temple was torn in two when He died in order to signify that, was it not? Well, why would anyone think that the new covenant would be put into effect without the old covenant also being made to no longer be in effect? How does it make any sense to think that they were both in effect at the same time for almost 40 years? The new covenant replaced the old covenant (Hebrews 8:6). How could the new covenant have not replaced the old covenant as soon as it was put into effect?
I agree, but your belief is not the typical preterist belief that 70 AD was the end of the (supposed) old covenant age, which I didn't realize until now.The Old Covenant ended when Jesus Christ of Nazareth died. Temple Judaism ceased in AD70.
The end of the age of Temple Judaism. There is still the Day of the Lord , the Last Day.I agree, but your belief is not the typical preterist belief that 70 AD was the end of the (supposed) old covenant age, which I didn't realize until now.
However, based on what you said in post #4, you do believe that 70 AD marked the end of the age that Jesus talked about. I disagree with that. Can you tell me how you interpret the following passage:
Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I can tell that you don't like to debate since you didn't give me your interpretation of Matthew 13:47-50. I can see that you don't want to be bothered with backing up your beliefs about the end of the age with scripture. So be it. Thanks for the discussion.The end of the age of Temple Judaism. There is still the Day of the Lord , the Last Day.
Note: I feel like we are going round and round on this. Lets give it a rest.
Blessings
So your definition of the Resurrection and the Life is to postpone the effects of the Cross indefinitely? You do get on other poster's cases who prolong their theology based on 70AD. Yet you believe the Resurrection and the Life is still a future reality? The time of death was pronounced by Jesus as being over. If we no longer taste death, how can you say we still die? What does not tasting death mean to you?And here's more nonsense from you, as usual. The eternal age to come did not start at the cross. It will not start until the new heavens and new earth are ushered in because it will be the time that begins when the resurrection of the dead occurs, which will be at the last trumpet when Christ returns (1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Cor 15:50-54, 1 Thess 4:14-17). The age to come is marked by people no longer getting married and people no longer dying (Luke 20:34-36). That clearly has not yet happened and won't happen until the new heavens and new earth are ushered in (Rev 21:1-4).
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