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Assumptions regarding Revelations

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Are below assumptions regarding the visions of Revelation correct or at least reasonable, or if not what would be the argument against?
1. The visions were revealed to John in the order of the chapters. So this is not about if the order of the visions in Revelations is the chronological sequence of the events, but only the sequence in which the visions were revealed to John.
2. The visions were not revealed all at once. Which portions may have been revealed together and why these?
3. John would have interpreted what was shown to him in the context of his personal knowledge and the culture of his day.
 

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No one can answer 1 & 2
#3 John would have written what what he was told to write by revelation from Jesus Christ regardless of personal knowledge or cultural insight.
We can look at the text and deduce how it most likely was constructed, so do you think my assumptions are reasonable? I absolutely agree that the text is penned down exactly how John was ordered to write it, but he is a human, so I think it's logical to assume that John would have his thoughts about what was tevealed to him. So in him doing that, do you think my assumptions about his reference frame are reasonable?
 
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sandman

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It’s not about you and your assumptions ….it’s me…. and my unwavering inflexibility.

When it comes to the Word, I can speculate with the best of them. But at the end of the day if there is not absolute proof to back up what I speculate…. I just go with what is written …I cannot cross that line. And if I do happen to ink it, I will make sure that it is clearly understood that I can see a connection, but I cannot prove it ….and thus it but speculation.
It is not up to me to teach assumptions, hypotheses, or theories….I will leave that to religion. If God wanted us to know certain things He would have put it in His Word….and if it’s not there ….it’s not there. And because Revelation does not apply to the Church of God it is not something I even think much about.

So in that respect…. and nothing against you….. I stand with my original answer.
 
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But do you agree there are hints about a sequence in which the revelations were given like "After this I looked and saw"?
 
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sandman

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But do you agree there are hints about a sequence in which the revelations were given like "After this I looked and saw"?

As in Rev 4:1?

Sequence yes…. But with time.. it’s tough …After is a time word in the Bible, like then, …which could be immediately after or an undisclosed time span… context most always will determine…. but we are talking about a visual and audio revelation that John was receiving, and visual revelation dies not have time constraints (I don’t know how else to explain it)

For me…. I couldn’t tell you how long it lasted. It felt like a few seconds, but it covered years … that’s me…. and my experience is not a guarantee for anyone else or for the norm…. nor could I equate it with anyone else’s experience (John’s)

It is impossible to tell what happened with John ….unless God tells us. And if it is important enough for you to know ….ask God. Maybe it’s something that He feels is relevant for you to know.
 
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RandyPNW

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Correct, I have been saying this for some time. The visions were all part of a sequential narrative, but not indicative of a chronological sequence for their fulfillments. There were a number of big extensive visions, and within them a number of smaller, distinct visions. There is little effort in the Revelation itself to order the many visions in chronological sequence. On the contrary, many of the visions cover the same territory, indicating that these many visions were likely telling the same story in different ways, covering the same general period of time, which was 3.5 years.

2. The visions were not revealed all at once. Which portions may have been revealed together and why these?

I've never heard that mentioned before. And I never thought about it. My assumption is that they all came about the same time. Why should we think any differently?

3. John would have interpreted what was shown to him in the context of his personal knowledge and the culture of his day.

Yes, Jesus would not have sent an angel incapable of speaking to John in the context of his own personal knowledge and experience. John was made and developed for this. And so, it was planned as such.

It is our job today to understand the Revelation the way John would've seen it. To do this we truly need to study to understand John's Jewish background and Christian understanding of how Jesus fulfilled the Law and plans to bring in his eternal Kingdom.
 
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Not sure if you fully get my statement here, maybe using your phrasing I would requote it like this.
The visions were revealed to John in the sequence in which they are recorded in the text of Revelations, but this sequence is not indicative of any chronological sequence for their fulfillment.

Yes I also think that different parts of the text cover same events, but let’s not get into that discussion (actual sequence of the described events) not to lose focus of the issue I want to discuss here.

I've never heard that mentioned before. And I never thought about it. My assumption is that they all came about the same time. Why should we think any differently?
Yes, I think all the visions were revealed in a limited timeframe, however I think there is reason to assume that all the visions as described in Revelations were revealed in one single, lets say “session”. For one, the amount of information provided is very large, it is true that in those times people could remember and reiterate much larger narratives than we can nowadays, and it could be that Johns scribe was recording everything John was shown “real time” while John was telling what he saw as it was revealed. But still it seems more logical that the full text of Revelations was revealed in parts at a time, also because there seem to be points where the narrative seems to “take a break” or there is a sudden change in the narrative as if the previous part was concluded a while before and a new revelation is started.


To give you an idea what I mean:

Rev 1 clearly is connected to Rev 2 and 3 by the subject of the lampstands representing the churches to which the letters are directed. Then Rev 4 starts with “After this” referring to the reciting of the letters, this could be like “which were recited to you just now” but also like “ that were recited to you previously”, so there might be a break of some time between the revealing of the letters and the vision starting in Rev 4.


Rev 5 sticks to the Heavenly scene introduced in Rev 4 and Rev 6 clearly connects to the seals of the scroll introduced in Rev 5. But then in Rev 7 there again is “After this”, so again here might have been a break of some time. Rev 7 also initiates a completely different narrative. But if these “after this” indicate a break in the revelation of the visions, then there would also be a break at Rev 7:9 which would result in a very short revelation for the 144 thousand.

Rev 8 then picks up on the seals narrative again, so all this may just as easy be revealed in one go after all… Rev 9 and 10 clearly are together with 8 again with both referring to the trumpets.

But then at the end of Rev 10 it reads ‘And I was told, “You must again prophesy about many peoples and nations and languages and kings.”’ Which sounds to me like “that’s all for now, in the mean time you go and do what you need to do”. Also there is a great resemblance between John “eating the scroll” and Ezekiel doing the same (Ezek 1:8 – 2:13) where Ezekiel went on his way in the “real world” (Ezek 2:14-15) and the revelation only continued after 7 days (Ezek 2:15).

So it seems at the end of Rev 10 the revelation was concluded for that time after which John would have pondered what the revelations would mean, just like it is recorded for practically every prophet…

In Rev 11 there is again a change in narrative with the 2 witnesses, but also mention of the 7th trumpet which seems to connect back to the previous chapters again suggesting no break. However, the 7th trumpet was already mentioned in Rev 10 in a somewhat conclusive manner, so the mentioning of this 7th trumpet in Rev 12 might be a way to “pick up the story” after a break. On the other hand still in Rev 11 the “2nd woe” is mentioned which directly connects to the first one in Rev 9 with the 1st woe connected to the 5th trumpet and the 2nd woe connected to the 6th trumpet, so that seems to be arguing against a break in between again. Interestingly, there is nowhere a clear mention of the start of the 3rd woe, in Rev 11 it is only stated to “come soon”. Only in Rev 12 once “woe” is mentioned regarding the devil having been cast down to the earth, so that might be the 3rd woe?

In any case there are arguments to think the complete text of revelations was revealed all at once, but also that this happened in parts.

Do you also think that John would have tried to interpret the visions for their meaning, that he would have wondered about it like if it was meant for his time or a future time?
 
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See my response to RandyPNW where I try to explain the basis for this assumption, just wondering if the full text of revelations might have been revealed all at once or parts. It might be interesting with respect to how to interpret the text?

It is impossible to tell what happened with John ….unless God tells us. And if it is important enough for you to know ….ask God. Maybe it’s something that He feels is relevant for you to know.
That is good advice and indeed what I already did and still doing, but many times God will speak through other people so I’m kinda listening.
 
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Yes, there is a sequence... but sometimes other things happen within the sequence.

Because the 6th seal is the wrath...
I have no clue what you mean with this…

John would only write what he was told... (Revelation 22:18-19). And we can see John's personal commentary written all over The Gospel According to John. But where do you see anything like that in The Revelation?
I’m not saying that John has commented or inserted his interpretations in the text of Revelations, just about how he would have interpreted the visions…
 
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RandyPNW

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Well, I think it's relevant to discuss here whether several visions covered the same territory. A brother recently suggested the trumpets judgments and the vial judgments were very similar and may have been a reiteration of the same things, to add a 2nd witness. Everything needs to be established by more than one witness.

So when we're talking breaks in the narrative, we're also discussing the relationship of one section to another. If they cover the same territory, then they can be reiterations, separated by time. I just don't think that's the case.

Yes, I think all the visions were revealed in a limited timeframe, however I think there is reason to assume that all the visions as described in Revelations were revealed in one single, lets say “session”.

I'm not really sure if we're on the same track, but I'll try again. I think the whole Revelation is a single narrative, with all of the phrasing, "after this," "then this," etc. being representative not of a chronological fulfillment for the visions, but rather, of a sequence in the narrative.

With this in mind, it is likely that the Revelation happened all in one "session." And he later had a scribe record this, which accounts for "after this, "then this" commentary. A lot of interpreters of Revelation mistakenly think "after this" means that each vision's fulfillment follows the previous vision's fulfillment in time. But John is just saying that after his vision he saw another vision.

What binds the whole Revelation together for me is the fact that they are not just a lot of scattered unconnected visions, but rather, visions within a few larger visions, all connected by a single commentary, a beginning and an end of the story. The scroll vision alone takes up virtually half the book. And the account of Antichrist takes up virtually the other half of the book.

The period of Antichrist's reign is said to be 3.5 years in three different ways--time, times and half a time, or 3.5 years, 42 months, and 1260 days (not 1290 days per Dan 12, which I believe referred to Antiochus 4).

So within these two major stories we have the entire book of Revelation and its many visions. Since both halves end up with the Kingdom of Christ, the book seems to be a reiteration of the same theme and the same general time frame. "After this" simply refers to the next vision John saw in sequence--not to the chronological order of their fulfillments.

Do you also think that John would have tried to interpret the visions for their meaning, that he would have wondered about it like if it was meant for his time or a future time?

Good question. I think John knew this was an elucidation of Dan 7, where the Man of Sin, or the Little Horn, was described as reigning for 3.5 years. In the same chapter, the 4th Beast is mentioned, which was to lead to the Kingdom of Christ.

So John clearly knew it was future. And he also knew that Jesus said the Jewish People had been sent in judgment into exile until the time of their return. So he had to know this was for a future people.

At the same time he knew end-time truths are given now to help people who live today. He said, "as you have heard that Antichrist is coming, so already there are many Antichrists." In other words, he is coming at the end of the age, but we have them already and need to beware of them.

The same thing likely held for John, that he had to minister to the 7 churches where they were at at that time, but also project into the future our hope, to keep us encouraged and to keep us watchful. Thanks for some interesting insights and questions!

I will add this that if John had more than a single session I should think we would be told that. We were told in the book of Daniel about each separate dream or vision. We are not told these are separate time periods for the visions. So I wouldn't read into it more than we're told. This seems like a single session.

But I think you're right that there are "separations" between visions in that one session, in which there is a pause, or the delineation of a sequence from one vision to another. This should cause us to avoid running fulfillments of each vision into a continuous sequence. They are distinct and separate visions all encased within a single narrative.
 
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John Owen

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From my 35 years of study, I think that we cannot know number one. Number two, it probably happened over a short span of time. John was old when he wrote it. Number 3 is probably true. Any book of the bible would have been interpreted by that person according to their knowledge of the day. The Apostles were writing down inspired Scripture, and the Lord did it using their personalities and education and culture of the day.
 
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Thanks for some interesting insights and questions!
Thank you and dito.

Yes I also recognize several visions that may be dealing about the same events, thus being reiterations. A reiteration may serve different purposes, like you suggest “second witness” is possible, I personally think it might be more to show different aspects of the events.

I’m not sure if it’s relevant whether the visions were revealed all at once or in portions regarding these reiterations, but if there were breaks in the revelation of the visions then certainly it would be on logical positions between visions.

Indeed the complete set of visions could have been revealed all at once. As I said, people in antiquity were much better in memorizing information than we are nowadays, people could recite whole books, so it wouldn’t be impossible for John to absorb all this and then afterwards dictate his scribe to put it all to paper. The thing is that I just want to see if there is any reason to assume that it was not revealed all at once but rather in separate episodes.

This is actually a very good point, apart from the first chapter there are no “real life” events described. On the other hand the nature of the book of Revelations is different that the books of the prophets where these are books about the prophets where the prophesies they received are included, while the book of Revelations is all and only about the revelations that were given.

Isn’t this divide in just two sections is a bit of a broad brush? Which are the text parts and how do you seen them both ending with the Kingdom of Christ?

I think John knew this was an elucidation of Dan 7, where the Man of Sin, or the Little Horn, was described as reigning for 3.5 years. In the same chapter, the 4th Beast is mentioned, which was to lead to the Kingdom of Christ.
What do you base this on?

At the same time he knew end-time truths are given now to help people who live today.
I think this is indeed the case, so both the Olivet Discourse and Revelations (at least the first part) can hold prophesy for the 70AD events and also hold prophesy for future (or current?) events…

True, and maybe it isn’t so much about the visions revealed at separate times, but more that the text indicates certain “break points” that a meaningful for interpreting the text.
 
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John Owen

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It would certainly be an assumption to claim that the Book of RevelatioN has an "s" a the end.
I did it more subtly on another thread, just posting "Revelation."
 
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John Owen

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@parousia70 , @John Owen
Thank you for this crucial correction! The world is a better place now!
To bad though that it doesn't contribute anything to the topic at hand...
But it is essential to the foundation of the entire discussion.
 
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parousia70

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@parousia70 , @John Owen
Thank you for this crucial correction! The world is a better place now!
To bad though that it doesn't contribute anything to the topic at hand...

You're welcome, but I disagree.
But it is essential to the foundation of the entire discussion.

Precicely. If you are reckless enough to not even spellcheck name of the book you are attempting discuss (when you demonstrably don't know how to spell it correctly), it makes the value of your contribution to the overall discussion highly suspect.
 
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John Owen

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I like the way you think, friend.
 
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