Ask the.... agnostic pantheist?

Delphiki · Jun 23, 2010

I figured I'd jump on the bandwagon and start one of these threads. Granted, I'm constantly trying to figure out what best described what I believe, and the closest I've come are terms like "agnostic pantheist", "agnostic pandeist", and even "UU (Unitarian Universalist".

Basically, the agnostic portion of my belief is that it's impossible to know for certain whether a god exists, and it's highly improbable, but not impossible that a god can exist... and if there is a god, it would essentially be another word for the universe as having (or had in the past or will have) some sort of sentience, with laws of reality permitting.

The hypothetical god I suggest isn't actually supernatural - just very difficult for mankind to perceive.

If you ever find an atheist to just be too grouchy to deal with and ask questions, you can probably ask me as well, as I pretty much concur with all rationalist conclusions. In fact, I find myself agreeing with atheists 99% of the time. My only differences are that I believe knowledge (or at least a thirst for knowledge) is enlightenment, and I don't rule out god as an impossibility.

Eudaimonist · Jun 23, 2010

What makes you a pantheist?

eudaimonia,

Mark

dewaddict84 · Jun 23, 2010

Pantheism so,

Do you consider the ant colony to be sentient? Not just a bunch of ants, but lifeform made of ants, the same way that humans are made of cells. Some biologists think of ants as super-organisms, and it makes sense in some regards. I would imagine that it's pretty much a given if you would consider the universe to be possible of sentience.

And I guess now would be a good time to ask for some insight into what "sentient" means to you.

But why not extend this idea to humanity? If groups can be sentient, does that mean that Europe is alive? The religious right? The geeks of the free software movement? Can human cultures, taken as the whole, be considered sentient?

Or is this just a game of redefining what it means to be alive?

Woden84 · Jun 23, 2010

My only differences are that I believe knowledge (or at least a thirst for knowledge) is enlightenment, and I don't rule out god as an impossibility.

I'm an atheist and I agree with both those points

razeontherock · Jun 23, 2010

Delphiki said:
if there is a god, it would essentially be another word for the universe as having (or had in the past or will have) some sort of sentience, with laws of reality permitting.

The hypothetical god I suggest isn't actually supernatural - just very difficult for mankind to perceive.

This is more reverent than many Christian's view. This 'supernatural;' why would it not be the 4th dimension?

Delphiki · Jun 24, 2010

Eudaimonist said:
What makes you a pantheist?

eudaimonia,

Mark

(note the "?" in my thread title. I think Pantheist is the right word) haha

dewaddict84 said:
Do you consider the ant colony to be sentient? Not just a bunch of ants, but lifeform made of ants, the same way that humans are made of cells. Some biologists think of ants as super-organisms, and it makes sense in some regards.

These two posts are closely related. Basically, in the way an ant colony might be considered a 'super-organism', should the universe be considered a living mind comprised of the starts and life therein, and it be capable of thought, then that would be god. This, however, would be unknowable by mankind. We have no way of knowing if our universe is holding conversation with another universe, or if our universe is only a part of a much more complex entity exisiting in one or more dimensions beyond the ones we can precieve.

All of our thoughts, memories, feelings, etc begin with a specific arrangement of chemicals and energy in the brain. It's when they are put in motion, and our thoughts are working, that we are alive.

Our individual brain cells aren't each consciously aware of their collective function as the human brain, let alone being part of a human at all. They are simply incapable of this awareness. Working together, however, the brain, as a whole, is aware of it's existence and can even learn what itself is made of.

As mankind continues to make new discoveries and learn more about the universe, so does the universe learn about itself. Carl Sagan even once said "We are a way for the universe to know itself." He may not have intended the quote to be quite as profound as I've taken it, but I think the idea is very thought provoking. If the universe is everything, then what we learn, so does the universe learn. If the universe, as a whole, makes a collective use of any part of this knowledge to any degree, then it begins to seem as if it has a consciousness. The universe would have begun to exhibit a self-awareness of sorts.

One could call such a universe any word it wants, but of all the words in the English language, I think "god" would best describe a self-aware and thinking universe.

Delphiki · Jun 24, 2010

razeontherock said:
This is more reverent than many Christian's view. This 'supernatural;' why would it not be the 4th dimension?

I see the 4th dimension as time. The supernatural is defined as something that doesn't exist in nature. Since the universe is nature, and reality, to say something is supernatural is essentially saying it's not real.

I, personally, don't believe in anything that can't eventually have a reasonable or logical explanation... this includes the nature of any god. If god is supernatural, then that means god isn't real.

My inspiration for hypothesizing on the nature of a god actually comes from a certain gratitude that I feel I owe for the infinite beauty of the universe. I'm truly amazed at the discoveries of science and the endless surprises we discover about ourselves. I feel the only way to give thanks for everything is to have something to thank. So like any other belief in a deity, mine is driven by irrationality and emotion.

Delphiki · Jun 24, 2010

dewaddict84 said:
And I guess now would be a good time to ask for some insight into what "sentient" means to you.

But why not extend this idea to humanity? If groups can be sentient, does that mean that Europe is alive? The religious right? The geeks of the free software movement? Can human cultures, taken as the whole, be considered sentient?

Or is this just a game of redefining what it means to be alive?

I think since mankind as a whole has a hard time answering these questions, I'm probably not going to be able to. I do know, however, that you really can't tell the difference between a robot programmed to emulate human emotion and an actual sentient, self-aware, human. Why is one sentient and the other one not?

For every example someone might give as a difference between the two, there's no reason why you couldn't hypothetically just program your robot to do the same thing, right?

Even we (humans) are technically a massive colony of much smaller living things, working in unison to make a more complex organism.

I think these are good questions you are asking, and ones I honestly don't have an answer to, but will definitely try to find out for the sake of my own enlightenment.

Delphiki · Jun 24, 2010

Woden84 said:
I'm an atheist and I agree with both those points

Except that by 'enlightenment', I'm speaking in a spiritual sense. Like getting closer to knowing god -- which you don't believe exists. And if you are strong atheist, you actually "know" god doesn't exist because it's an impossibility "period". A weak atheist might be open to the possibility to a god if one were empirically prove-able. I think that's how it works, right?

Eudaimonist · Jun 24, 2010

So let me see if I understand you correctly...

You are an agnostic atheist because you're not sure if God exists, but if God does exist, then God is a conscious universe.

Is that essentially it?

eudaimonia,

Mark

Delphiki · Jun 24, 2010

Eudaimonist said:
So let me see if I understand you correctly...

You are an agnostic atheist because you're not sure if God exists, but if God does exist, then God is a conscious universe.

Is that essentially it?

eudaimonia,

Mark

Very close. More like we would have no way of knowing whether the universe is actually conscious, thus no way of knowing there is god. I suppose that's pretty much the same thing.

anakonda · Jun 24, 2010

Hello
What type of rituals do you do as an Agnostic Pantheist?

razeontherock · Jun 24, 2010

Delphiki said:
Basically, in the way an ant colony might be considered a 'super-organism', should the universe be considered a living mind comprised of the starts and life therein, and it be capable of thought, then that would be god. This, however, would be unknowable by mankind.

Our entire Universe, beginning with the big bang, could merely be a pimple erupting on a somewhat larger creature. On his way to the Doctor. To get acne medication. Medication that's effective. Yes, G-d is that big.

This can be knowable by mankind, solely by Jesus' resurrection from the dead. No other possible explanation for it.

Super-natural doesn't mean not real; it means a reality that is above the reality we know. Do you think string theory has any application here?

Delphiki · Jun 24, 2010

anakonda said:
Hello
What type of rituals do you do as an Agnostic Pantheist?

Outside of my morning cup of coffee, daily reports at work, dinner, and catching my shows or the weekly Warcraft raid, absolutely none. But I guess that's more routine than ritual.

razeontherock said:
Our entire Universe, beginning with the big bang, could merely be a pimple erupting on a somewhat larger creature. On his way to the Doctor. To get acne medication. Medication that's effective. Yes, G-d is that big.

I'd hate to think that everything we see is some kind of unattractive ailment god is experiencing. lol

razeontherock said:
This can be knowable by mankind, solely by Jesus' resurrection from the dead. No other possible explanation for it.

I've read the story, actually, in the books of Mark, Luke, etc. I never acheived total universal awareness as a result. The reality I live in isn't constructed by what I believe, but rather my belief is based on what I know around me. So even if I were Christian, I don't think I would have knowledge of every fragment of the universe. Things like LSD might make one think they are experiencing this level of awareness, but that's probably as close as any of us are capable of getting.

razeontherock said:
Super-natural doesn't mean not real; it means a reality that is above the reality we know. Do you think string theory has any application here?

Anything beyond the one we know can only be imagination, since it is not reality. If it were an actual reality, then that real, and hence, not supernatural. The moment you demonstrate supernatural, it is no longer supernatural.

String theory is not only mathematical in nature it's actually testable.

I appreciate the concern you've shown by suggesting I get to "know" Christ, but I think the purpose of this thread in particular is to learn about my beliefs. If anyone would like to proselytize to me, I invite anyone to feel free to send me a private message. Not just because I like to get everyone a fair chance to "nab" me, but because I might be able to get away with saying more in PM than saying things in the open that some might be offended by.

dewaddict84 · Jun 24, 2010

with another universe

wut?
There's just the one dude. Hence, uni-

razeontherock · Jun 24, 2010

Delphiki said:
Anything beyond the one we know can only be imagination, since it is not reality. If it were an actual reality, then that real, and hence, not supernatural.

Just poking holes in your thinking to see if it holds up. You're saying anything that's real we're aware of, and anything beyond our awareness is our imagination; yet elsewhere you admit we're not aware of everything. This makes me think there may be other aspects to your belief system that may not hold up to scrutiny.

Delphiki said:
String theory is not only mathematical in nature it's actually testable.

Yes, with no consensus of how many dimensions last I checked. Elsewhere you claimed the 4th dimension is time which disagrees w/ Physics and the tesseract, but why couldn't other aspects we're not aware of that aren't our imagination (including the supernatural) be higher dimensions?

Delphiki said:
I appreciate the concern you've shown by suggesting I get to "know" Christ,

Can you show me where? (You did mention hallucinogens)

Delphiki · Jun 25, 2010

I'm saying there is no provable supernatural anything. Anything that exists in reality is natural. If something doesn't exist in reality, then it's not real. It's really that simple.

String theory posits the number of dimensions depending on how it's approached. Since I can't post the link, might I suggest checking out the 10thdim channel on youtube. It's most well-known video explains the 10 dimensions, with another video explaining why some say 11.

Also, if you take a cube shape, and move it from one location to another or expand it in all directions, you've just technically made an illustration of a tesseract. The additional edges would be represented by the path of motion through time from state A to state B. This is how time can be applied as a 4th dimension.

Penumbra · Jun 25, 2010

dewaddict84 said:
wut?
There's just the one dude. Hence, uni-

That's not necessarily true.

Many scientific theories suggest the possibility of a multiverse, a large or possibly infinite number of universes.

-Lyn

dewaddict84 · Jun 25, 2010

Many scientific theories suggest the possibility of a multiverse

Alright, care to name a few? I mean, Gordon Freeman from Black Mesa also did some research into multiple dimensions, but that's not really reputable.

Delphiki · Jun 28, 2010

First, the word "universe" was coined and defined before additional hypothesis were developed. The ideas for multiple universes came about well after the word "universe", which is defined by the reality that we currently inhabit. It's like starting the "Greatest Circus on Earth", then someone in the future making a better circus called "The Neato Circus".

Among some hypotheses and theory that suggest multiple universes include M-Theory, the cyclic hypothesis, the anthropic model, among others. Granted only one is an actual falsifiable theory and the other are actually speculation or hypothesis. String theory mathematically shows us 10-11 dimensions (depending on how it's calculated), one of the higher dimensions representing our observable dimensions (the one universe) being a point on a measurable line, allowing the possibility for an infinite number of alternate realities.

All it takes to learn more is to google "metaverse", "multiverse", or "megaverse" ;-)

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