Ask a Pagan

If pre-Islamic Arab Pagan reconstructionism would surface, do you think they should get equal access to the Kaaba? If they tried to force the Muslims to share the Kaaba through whatever means, would you support their cause?

Futuwwa said:

If pre-Islamic Arab Pagan reconstructionism would surface, do you think they should get equal access to the Kaaba? If they tried to force the Muslims to share the Kaaba through whatever means, would you support their cause?

Click to expand...

Do you mean like Sumerian/Canaanite recons and such? Or the immediate predecessors of Islam in the Arabian peninsula?

sidhe said:

Do you mean like Sumerian/Canaanite recons and such? Or the immediate predecessors of Islam in the Arabian peninsula?

Click to expand...

I thought of the immediate predecessors of Islam in the Arabian peninsula. The people who warred with Muhammed and ended up getting their idols smashed. I.e. the people who would have the biggest personal interest in getting back the Kaaba.

Futuwwa said:

I thought of the immediate predecessors of Islam in the Arabian peninsula. The people who warred with Muhammed and ended up getting their idols smashed. I.e. the people who would have the biggest personal interest in getting back the Kaaba.

Click to expand...

Is there even any extant information on their beliefs/practices?

Well, hardly, except for the descriptions found in Islamic chronicles whenever they describe the interaction between the Pagans and the early Islamic community.

Futuwwa said:

Well, hardly, except for the descriptions found in Islamic chronicles whenever they describe the interaction between the Pagans and the early Islamic community.

Click to expand...

I've heard less about pre-Islamic Arabian beliefs than anything else, so I don't foresee it becoming an issue. Were they to recon the beliefs...I don't see any neopagan group demanding access to historical sites of their construct. Not a lot of Anglo Recons demanding to be able to use Glastonbury Abbey as a site for rituals, nor Irish Recons wanting churches and shrines to saints removed. It's a) too much trouble and b) creates a negative public image.

Were they to want to visit Mecca, I might support that, but the Kaaba doesn't even contain the statuary that made it a place of pagan worship to begin with, so I don't think I'd support that at all.

Alizera said:

What do you think of that Gerald Gardner guy?

Click to expand...

sidhe said:

Gardner was important in the grand scheme of the return of paganism as a viable religious construct, but he liked to make stuff up as he went along.

Click to expand...

Jane_the_Bane said:

Who doesn't? As long as you don't butcher ideas or reduce them to a meaningless popcorn fluff tasting faintly of plastic...
Problems only arise once you start to sell your ideas as dogma, and pretend that they're 10,000 years old at the VERY least.

Click to expand...

Having done an in-depth study of a couple of his books, and studied a bit about the man himself at one time, allow me to lend some insight.

Though Gardner was very intelligent, he was more self-educated than formally educated. As such, he was very knowledgeable and talented, but doubtlessly had significant "gaps" in his education. He was dedicated and meticulous in his research, but suffered from two personal flaws which significantly affected the quality of his work (especially where Wicca was concerned); he tended to form conclusions before or during his research, and his love of attention encouraged him to present verifiable information as more 'sensational' than was warranted.

Some have said that he was less than attentive in establishing the credibility of his sources, but I believe this was an extension of his problem of pre-conceived conclusions, i.e., if the source in question agreed with his work, it was credible; if it didn't, it needed further research. Also, it has been noted that. in many instances, he would "fill in the gaps" where research came up short. Gardner felt that if anyone were to propose additions to such gaps, that it should be the person with the most extensive knowledge and experience that could be found. So naturally, he volunteered himself. In a sense, he had a point, but had completely sacrificed objectivity.

One good example of his flawed research would be the Clavis Salomonis, or Key of Solomon, which Gardner used to establish many of the ceremonial practices of Wicca. This document was presented as a guide for ceremonial magic, written by King Solomon himself. I believe that Gardner had an idea that this document was likely a forgery (since he had at least three different translations of it in his library) but never divulged that information. Nonetheless, this document *can* be traced back to the 1400's, and as well, appears to be influenced by the Jewish Kabbalah, which potentially brings overall antiquity to as early as the 2nd century. So while he may have felt justified in accepting this as an "ancient" source, he was "short-cutting" the proper process of research.

Overall, I still believe his books are a good source of information, though all of it needs to be read with a very critical eye.

Literally,
-- Druweid

sacredsin said:

Thought I'd jump on the bandwagon as well, however, as opposed to this just being a "Sacredsin" thread, I thought I'd open it up for all pagans in the area to post their answers as well.

So let the questions fly.

Click to expand...

Do you intend to live forever? What will you do on judgment day? Is the day of the Lord very far off?

*

How do you not get overwhelmed with all of the information, materials you need...stuff like that?

What deities, if any, do you believe in? Why?

ahmid said:

Do you intend to live forever?

Click to expand...

No, nor do I want to.

What will you do on judgment day?

Click to expand...

"Terminator" movie marathon!

Is the day of the Lord very far off?

Click to expand...

I do not believe it will ever happen.

If a pagan/heathen decides not to know his maker YHWH, I have nothing to do with that decision. I have enlightened and my prayers have been for their enlightenment in Christ. Keep away devil, in Jesus Christ's name.
*

none the wiser said:

How do you not get overwhelmed with all of the information, materials you need...stuff like that?

What deities, if any, do you believe in? Why?

Click to expand...

I used to, but I've got most of my core equipment now, and I love reading, so it's not much of an issue.

What is the difference between Paganism and Heathenism?

Futuwwa,
I thought you bid us farewell last week?

"We could have done so much together! We could have been a great reactionary force in the world, but you chose otherwise, Futt!"
*

Futuwwa said:

What is the difference between Paganism and Heathenism?

Click to expand...

It's like the difference between "Muslim" and "Sunni." Heathens are pagans, but pagans aren't necessarily heathens.

"Heathen" in the neo-pagan world refers to those following the Northern/Eastern European trads, usually either in a culturally authentic or reconstructed context. Some also count Proto-Indo-European (PIE) practices and the PanCeltic recons as heathenry as well.