As an apostate, am I damned to hell?

lovernotafighter · Dec 15, 2010

DISCLAIMER: This is NOT a bait thread. I am honestly seeking the Catholic opinion on this because I have heard both. If you leave the Catholic Church are you damned to hell? Thanks.

Memento Mori · Dec 15, 2010

Schism is a grave sin and can be mortal, but we don't know. Anything more is pure speculation.

Virgil the Roman · Dec 15, 2010

If one willfully leaves the Holy Roman Catholic Church Christ established willfully and does not repent ( I did at one point), then, if one does not repent, one will be consigning one's self to perdition.

Ultimately, The Choice is yours: Do you want to obey your own private will or obey God and His Holy Catholic Church? The Onus of this is not upon God; or His Holy Church, but upon---you.

At one time, I tried to leave the Catholic Church; wanting to abandon her; thinking that I knew better. I was wrong.

I was filled with pride, arrogance, haughtiness; thinking that the Church of God ought to be made to conform to my will and conception of how I thought proper church ought to govern and rule. There are many who ascribe to the doctrines of private interpretation with regards to Christianity, interpreting the Bible as they personally please and according to their private will. They form their own churches; essentially new sects or "religions" inventing new doctrines from their fresh misinterpretations of the Bible. It happens every year. To date, we've approximately 33,000 Protestant churches and counting. There is one Holy Roman Catholic Church today (as there has been for two thousand years); historical continuity attests to this.

Additionally, for two thousand years, the Catholic Church has maintained historical, scriptural, doctrinal, hierarchical, organisational, and spiritual unity and cohesion. The same cannot be said for the Protestant "churches." Their sects fragment monthly, weekly, yearly.

Protestantism is only 500 years old; chronically, an anachronism, separated from Christ, His Apostles, and the doctrines of the early Church by 1,100 years at least, and 1,400 years at the most (and that is only tying Luther and Calvin to their length of time that their denominations were founded apart from the Catholic Church! I am referring to the early Church period: 33 A.D.- circa 480/500 A.D.! )

Imagine the modern-day Pentecostal sect founded in the twentieth century! Separated from Christ and the Church He created by 1,900 years!

[I know I am rather terse, and perhaps somewhat, curt. Forgive me if, I have been uncharitable or unkind; such is most certainly not my intent. However, it is not for lack of charity upon my part.]

JourneyToPeace · Dec 15, 2010

Jared R said:
Schism is a grave sin and can be mortal, but we don't know. Anything more is pure speculation.

In addition, I do want to say this NOT as a slam against younger people at all, but just as a simple fact all people ought to think about, regardless of their age: don't be so quick to write yourself off as an "apostate". The person you are now as a 16 year old WILL change a lot in the next ten years. Believe me when I say that when I was 16, or 18, or 20, or 22, etc etc... I didn't know how my life would look right now. And right now at 25, I don't know how it'll look at 35.

I DO know that you'll learn a lot, grow a lot, and develop. Emotionally, intellectually, spiritually. How that happens and which direction it goes in IS largely up to you.... so, this is your chance now to learn as much as you can, ask as much as you can, pray as much as you can, and stay open to the truth at all times.

I am never going to tell a fellow brother or sister in Christ that they're damned to hell. If others are comfortable with making that decision, that's their choice, but I'm not. We may be in a state of sin, true. And we may be far away from Jesus, true. But I believe there's hope for each of us to MAKE A U-TURN. I believe we do grow and change, and that God will give us the entirety of our natural lives to come into full communion with Jesus Christ, even if we feel we're "apostates" or "away" from Him right now.

Keep searching, and keep seeking Him, and DON'T ever accept the idea that you are, as of this moment, "damned". ONE person knows that: God. And no matter what anyone tells you, absolutely none of us are Him.

My prayers go with you.

chilehed · Dec 15, 2010

Virgil the Roman said:
If one willfully leaves the Holy Roman Catholic Church Christ established willfully and does not repent ( I did at one point), then, if one does not repent, one will be consigning one's self to perdition. ....

So if I willfully switch to one of the Eastern Rite churches that are in union with Rome, I'm doomed?

QuantaCura · Dec 15, 2010

As has been said, schism, heresy, and apostasy are mortal sins which also break the unity of faith and cause one to be cut off from the Body of Christ. A branch cut off from the root withers and dies. There is no salvation for those not grafted into the Body of Christ.

However, one who commits those sins outwardly may belong to the Church in a kind of internal way if they are innocently mistaken or ignorant as to the truth and they truly will to submit themselves unconditionally to God and are repentant of their sins for the love of God. Such a one may still be saved in that condition, provided he perseveres in grace of course.

Anyway, here are some Bible verses concerning these sins:

Titus 3 [10]A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid:[11] Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment.

Gal. 1 [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.

Gal. 5 [19]Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, [20] Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects, [21] Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God. (my emphasis)

Matt. 18:17b And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Also, read about the schism of Korah in Numbers chapter 16.

chilehed · Dec 15, 2010

lovernotafighter said:
DISCLAIMER: This is NOT a bait thread. I am honestly seeking the Catholic opinion on this because I have heard both. If you leave the Catholic Church are you damned to @#!*% ? Thanks.

There's a subjective element of intent that's involved, so any hypothetical is difficult to answer.

That way you've phrased the question, that correct answer is "that depends".

CreedIsChrist · Dec 15, 2010

I think Unam Sanctum answers this question quite well..

eastcoast_bsc · Dec 15, 2010

Virgil the Roman said:
If one willfully leaves the Holy Roman Catholic Church Christ established willfully and does not repent ( I did at one point), then, if one does not repent, one will be consigning one's self to perdition.

Ultimately, The Choice is yours: Do you want to obey your own private will or obey God and His Holy Catholic Church? The Onus of this is not upon God; or His Holy Church, but upon---you.

At one time, I tried to leave the Catholic Church; wanting to abandon her; thinking that I knew better. I was wrong.

I was filled with pride, arrogance, haughtiness; thinking that the Church of God ought to be made to conform to my will and conception of how I thought proper church ought to govern and rule. There are many who ascribe to the doctrines of private interpretation with regards to Christianity, interpreting the Bible as they personally please and according to their private will. They form their own churches; essentially new sects or "religions" inventing new doctrines from their fresh misinterpretations of the Bible. It happens every year. To date, we've approximately 33,000 Protestant churches and counting. There is one Holy Roman Catholic Church today (as there has been for two thousand years); historical continuity attests to this.

Additionally, for two thousand years, the Catholic Church has maintained historical, scriptural, doctrinal, hierarchical, organisational, and spiritual unity and cohesion. The same cannot be said for the Protestant "churches." Their sects fragment monthly, weekly, yearly.

Protestantism is only 500 years old; chronically, an anachronism, separated from Christ, His Apostles, and the doctrines of the early Church by 1,100 years at least, and 1,400 years at the most (and that is only tying Luther and Calvin to their length of time that their denominations were founded apart from the Catholic Church! I am referring to the early Church period: 33 A.D.- circa 480/500 A.D.! )

Imagine the modern-day Pentecostal sect founded in the twentieth century! Separated from Christ and the Church He created by 1,900 years!

[I know I am rather terse, and perhaps somewhat, curt. Forgive me if, I have been uncharitable or unkind; such is most certainly not my intent. However, it is not for lack of charity upon my part.]

Yes you are curt and rather terse in your answer. If one is honestly seeking Christ in their heart, and honestly believes in another Christian faith, then yes they can be saved. Just as Muslims, and non-Christians who honestly seek, can find salvation.

banish'd · Dec 15, 2010

lovernotafighter said:
DISCLAIMER: This is NOT a bait thread. I am honestly seeking the Catholic opinion on this because I have heard both. If you leave the Catholic Church are you damned to hell? Thanks.

At your age I think you should talk it over with your parents.

.

JourneyToPeace · Dec 15, 2010

banish'd said:
At your age I think you should talk it over with your parents.

.

Your parents, other relatives, trusted family friends, and your local priest (if possible) would be great people to talk with. They know you, or if they don't know you (perhaps in the case of a priest), they can speak with you face to face and get to know you and your heart much better than an internet community could. (We mean well here, but you'll get opinions all over the place from many different angles. It may be better to discuss this with someone 'up close and personal'.)

Virgil the Roman · Dec 15, 2010

You can't be "saved" and reject the Church, East. IF one does so willfully and by mortal sin, then one is not "saved."

Virgil the Roman · Dec 15, 2010

chilehed said:
So if I willfully switch to one of the Eastern Rite churches that are in union with Rome, I'm doomed?

Snarky, aren't we?

I go Byzantine Catholic anyways. I mean the Holy Catholic Church. I add Roman, as a qualifier as some Prots try to twist the meaning of "catholic" to apply to them, whenever it most certainly does not.

eastcoast_bsc · Dec 15, 2010

Virgil the Roman said:
You can't be "saved" and reject the Church, East. IF one does so willfully and by mortal sin, then one is not "saved."

No one said willfully. If one is seeking Christ according to the WORD of God, than they are saved. Your beef is not with me, it is with Christ.

If said person believes that the Catholic Church is like other Churches with an honest heart than it is NOT willful.

It is always about intent, and where the individuals heart is. Only God knows the heart.

Then he brought them outside and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31They answered, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.

As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life? 18Jesus said to him, Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. 19You know the commandments: You shall not murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; You shall not defraud; Honour your father and mother. 20He said to him, Teacher, I have kept all these since my youth. 21Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money* to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me. 22When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions

Then they said to him, What must we do to perform the works of God? 29Jesus answered them, This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent

everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

SolomonVII · Dec 15, 2010

Hell can be described as God's final mercy for those who cannot tolerate the light of his presence.

Virgil the Roman · Dec 15, 2010

Christ is the Word of God; the Catholic Church is the Body of Christ. To reject the Catholic Church is to reject the Body of Christ. That's Sacred Tradition.

CreedIsChrist · Dec 15, 2010

eastcoast_bsc said:
No one said willfully. If one is seeking Christ according to the WORD of God, than they are saved. Your beef is not with me, it is with Christ.

If said person believes that the Catholic Church is like other Churches with an honest heart than it is NOT willful.

It is always about intent, and where the individuals heart is. Only God knows the heart.

I think the big question your asking is if one can be saved without possessing the fullness of truth..

I always thought the argument from ignorance was a bad one though, since it is self refuting i.e. "ignorance is bliss"...

Aeyamar · Dec 16, 2010

lovernotafighter said:
DISCLAIMER: This is NOT a bait thread. I am honestly seeking the Catholic opinion on this because I have heard both. If you leave the Catholic Church are you damned to hell? Thanks.

Technically, the true answer is impossible to discern since there are all kinds of things (invincible ignorance among them) that have a effect on whether those who left or are not part of the church go to heaven or hell.

A more interesting question is: As an apostate, does it matter?

If you don't believe in Catholicism, why should you care whether Catholics believe you are going to hell or aren't?

CreedIsChrist · Dec 16, 2010

Aeyamar said:
Technically, the true answer is impossible to discern since there are all kinds of things (invincible ignorance among them) that have a effect on whether those who left or are not part of the church go to heaven or hell.

A more interesting question is: As an apostate, does it matter?

If you don't believe in Catholicism, why should you care whether Catholics believe you are going to hell or aren't?

maybe because he believes there is truth in it and is worried? or that is bothers his conscious? could be many reasons. Indecision while at times can be a good thing can make someone question many things for good reason.

QuantaCura · Dec 16, 2010

CreedIsChrist said:
I always thought the argument from ignorance was a bad one though, since it is self refuting i.e. "ignorance is bliss"...

But ignorance is not bliss. Almost everyone I know who loves God and has come to discover the truth and has decided to embrace it has experienced true joy, not disappointment or sadness, etc. Someone who has the proper good will and good faith is the kind who will rejoice when they find the truth, when the way of salvation is made clear and they no longer need to grope along in the shadows. On the other hand, disregard or negligence of the truth is not the path to salvation--a person who, upon finding the truth, would look back with longing on his ignorant state (think of Lot's wife) or only follow God out of servile fear of personal harm, while perhaps a first step, would not have the proper disposition to be saved.

An analogous situation is that not all of us are called to get rid of all of our possessions, but if we were called to, we should gladly do it and follow where ever the Lord leads. If you were to receive this call and you would become sad and walk away, then you don't have the faith and discipleship necessary for salvation (even if you were to never receive that call).

Plus, we were not given the command to speculate as to the state of someone's soul, but rather to preach the Gospel so that all may be saved. Sure, it is possible for someone in a state of innocent ignorance to comply with the internal graces he is sent, but it's also possible for people to harden their hearts to them internally and therefore need an external voice to call them to repentance.

We can't say who is in what state, but ultimately it's irrelevant. Those in good faith who seek to love God unconditionally deserve the full patrimony their Father has given them and the full depths of Christian charity so that they can have what their heart holds most dear. Those who have hardened their hearts to the moving of the spirit need that external preaching and acts of charity to reawaken in them that openness to the Spirit.

As an apostate, am I damned to hell?

Liberal :)

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