Article: what is wrong the substitutionary theory of atonement.

AzA · Aug 5, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
We don't have much choice, do we?

My goal is to know God, not to be God.

Have fun,
BFA

Understood, bro. And though I'm sure StormyOne will speak for himself whenever he rejoins us, it's [because] of that that when StormyOne said "God desires that we be fully human, to live out our potential as the humans he created," it didn't make me nervous at all. It's cool with me that God made us human, in His image, and has no interest in us trying to be what we are not. I might even suggest that the whole point of this restoration business is to draw us back into being what we are. One can only divert a river for so long.

sentipente · Aug 5, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
We don't have much choice, do we?

My goal is to know God, not to be God.

Have fun,
BFA

And the best way to get to know God, per Rom. 1:20, is through the things that He made. Human beings being one of them. The best way to get to know God is to get to know yourself.

sentipente · Aug 5, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
By raising the point, I sought to clarify whether Stormy was referring to the common use of the phrase relating to "you're only human" or "I'm only human."

BFA

Another sad point since whenever we do something wonderful we then refer to our group membership rather than our humanity. We have bought into the lie that to be human is to be less than we should be.

JonMiller · Aug 5, 2008

sentipente said:
And the best way to get to know God, per Rom. 1:20, is through the things that He made. Human beings being one of them. The best way to get to know God is to get to know yourself.

lol

If I were interested in that Doctrine, I would have decided to become a Buddhist 10+ years ago, not decided to stay a Christian. You don't gain anything from studying yourself.

JM

StormyOne · Aug 5, 2008

JonMiller said:
lol

If I were interested in that Doctrine, I would have decided to become a Buddhist 10+ years ago, not decided to stay a Christian. You don't gain anything from studying yourself.

JM

spoken like one who has never engaged in introspection, psychology, sociology or biology, for isn't biology the study of humanity, sociology the study of how humans interact, psychology the study of the human mind and personality and introspection the evaluating of how we interact with the world around us? To flippantly dismiss the studying of humans is interesting indeed...

StormyOne · Aug 5, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
We don't have much choice, do we?

My goal is to know God, not to be God.

Have fun,
BFA

and God's goal is for you to be what He created you to be.... totally, fully human and made a little lower than he himself.... why are people afraid to embrace this reality?

AzA · Aug 5, 2008

BFA, two things -- have you ever

1. considered the Christus Victor atonement theory? Based on a 1930s theory-consoldiation attempt by a guy named Gustav Aulen. I don't think I'm allowed to link here yet otherwise I would. But check it out. You might also find some value in Orthodox explanations how our ontology affects our explanation of salvation.

2. taken a slow tour through Jurgen Moltmann's book _The Crucified God_? The early sections historically review various cultic and systematic precedents for raw substitution rituals and theologies; the next couple of sections look carefully at the crucifixion stories and explore what they imply about mankind, Jesus, and God; and then the last couple of sections try to tease out applications for all that. Just got to the "so what" sections so I can't comment on them but the first half has been great fun.

Thought you might be interested.

JonMiller · Aug 6, 2008

StormyOne said:
spoken like one who has never engaged in introspection, psychology, sociology or biology, for isn't biology the study of humanity, sociology the study of how humans interact, psychology the study of the human mind and personality and introspection the evaluating of how we interact with the world around us? To flippantly dismiss the studying of humans is interesting indeed...

I didn't say that the study of humans wasn't interesting. I said the study of yourself wasn't interesting.

JM

StormyOne · Aug 6, 2008

JonMiller said:
I didn't say that the study of humans wasn't interesting. I said the study of yourself wasn't interesting.

JM

aren't you human?

Byfaithalone1 · Aug 6, 2008

StormyOne said:
and God's goal is for you to be what He created you to be.... totally, fully human and made a little lower than he himself.... why are people afraid to embrace this reality?

As a sinner, will I be today exactly who God created me to be?

For me, it isn't a matter of fear; it is a matter of acknowledging reality. The reality that I see is found in nature, in myself and in Scripture. All men sin. In fact, the whole world is a prisoner of sin. The effects of sin can be seen in nature. The effects of sin can be sin in my own life. And the effects of sin can be seen in Scripture.

You guys have suggested that I study myself. It's a great reminder, but not a new suggestion. I have studied myself and that study has led to the realization that I am not exactly who God created me to be. I sin. Although I believe that God was aware that I would sin when He created me, I have found nothing that would lead me to conclude that it was God's desire that I engage in sin.

I recognize that you don't see this subject as I do, but I suspect that you were already aware of the reasons why I view this subject the way that I do. For me, it isn't solely about fear. It's about recognizing the ratio between who I am and who God is.

BFA

sentipente · Aug 6, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
It's about recognizing the ratio between who I am and who God is.

BFA

Do you think the solution is to try to be like God?

Byfaithalone1 · Aug 6, 2008

sentipente said:
Do you think the solution is to try to be like God?

I don't have the solution. The solution is not based on anything that I do, believe or say. The solution is found only in Jesus Christ. My goal is to know Him, not to be Him.

BFA

sentipente · Aug 6, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
I don't have the solution. The solution is not based on anything that I do, believe or say. The solution is found only in Jesus Christ. My goal is to know Him, not to be Him.

BFA

How do you intend to go about knowing Him? Do you think that what well-meaning men have written about Him constitutes the entire truth about Him? What is it you are aiming at?

Byfaithalone1 · Aug 6, 2008

sentipente said:
How do you intend to go about knowing Him? Do you think that what well-meaning men have written about Him constitutes the entire truth about Him? What is it you are aiming at?

I have now answered each of these questions several times.

Since Jesus referred to the Scriptures as a source of truth, I believe that the Scriptures contain truth. In addition to the Scriptures, there are other ways to develop a knowledge of God. I listed some of them previously, just a few posts ago.

I realize that there are people in the world who search the Scriptures believing that they are the source of life. I don't think that I am one of those people. The Scriptures testify of Jesus Christ and I believe that it is in HIM that we have eternal life.

Would you care to answer any of my questions in the Can You Educate Me thread? I'm particularly interested in your perspective on fundamental belief #19.

BFA

StormyOne · Aug 6, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
I have now answered each of these questions several times.

Since Jesus referred to the Scriptures as a source of truth, I believe that the Scriptures contain truth. In addition to the Scriptures, there are other ways to develop a knowledge of God. I listed some of them previously, just a few posts ago.

I realize that there are people in the world who search the Scriptures believing that they are the source of life. I don't think that I am one of those people. The Scriptures testify of Jesus Christ and I believe that it is in HIM that we have eternal life.

Would you care to answer any of my questions in the Can You Educate Me thread? I'm particularly interested in your perspective on fundamental belief #19.

BFA

You search the scriptures because in them you "think" you have eternal life... but they testify of me.... so the question what would God prefer, you reading a book about him, or an intimate personal interaction with him? That's how I see it.... He can tell me more about himself than a book written about him can.... likewise, a book about him can never contain everything there is about him.... but that's just me....

"Jesus did many other things. If they were all written in books, I don't suppose there would be room enough in the whole world for all the books."

sentipente · Aug 6, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
I have now answered each of these questions several times.

Since Jesus referred to the Scriptures as a source of truth, I believe that the Scriptures contain truth. In addition to the Scriptures, there are other ways to develop a knowledge of God. I listed some of them previously, just a few posts ago.

I realize that there are people in the world who search the Scriptures believing that they are the source of life. I don't think that I am one of those people. The Scriptures testify of Jesus Christ and I believe that it is in HIM that we have eternal life.

Would you care to answer any of my questions in the Can You Educate Me thread? I'm particularly interested in your perspective on fundamental belief #19.

BFA

You may have given answers but I still don't know what the pursuit is about. Not that I have to know since that is really your personal concern. But when you make it a part of public discourse my interest is engaged. Regarding the FBs, you already know my perspective on all of them. They are a classic case where more means less. The more they said the less likely it was that the FBs would be defensible.

Byfaithalone1 · Aug 6, 2008

StormyOne said:
so the question what would God prefer, you reading a book about him, or an intimate personal interaction with him?

I don't know that it is an either/or proposition. God prefers the latter, but not to the exclusion of the former.

BFA

sentipente · Aug 6, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
I don't know that it is an either/or proposition. God prefers the latter, but not to the exclusion of the former.

BFA

It is not either/or but which of the two you give more weight.

Byfaithalone1 · Aug 6, 2008

sentipente said:
It is not either/or but which of the two you give more weight.

I previously wrote:

I realize that there are people in the world who search the Scriptures believing that they are the source of life. I don't think that I am one of those people. The Scriptures testify of Jesus Christ and I believe that it is in HIM that we have eternal life.

And I also wrote:

God prefers the latter.

BFA

JonMiller · Aug 6, 2008

StormyOne said:
aren't you human?

Looking at yourself is very hard, because of issues relating to observers/etc. Looking at other people is easier because it is easier to have the observation be less corrupted.

Being inward looking gets you nowhere. It is only be being outward looking that you can expand.

JM

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