Arminianism vs Wesleyanism

WisdomTree · Oct 29, 2013

A sequel to: http://www.christianforums.com/t7783009/, which itself is a sequel to: http://www.christianforums.com/t7749617/, which itself is a spin-off of: http://www.christianforums.com/t7748641/, which itself is a direct prequel to: http://www.christianforums.com/t7747424/, which itself is a spin-off of: http://www.christianforums.com/t7745268/, which itself is a spin-off of: http://www.christianforums.com/t7741459/, which itself is a direct sequel to: http://www.christianforums.com/t7740345/, which itself was a spin-off of: http://www.christianforums.com/t7738969/, which itself was a spin-off of: http://www.christianforums.com/t7732542/.

Also known as Remonstrants vs Methodists.

Founded by the followers of one Dutch Calvinist theologian, Jakob Hermanszoon who challenged the Belgic Confession (the standard of Reformed theology), the Remonstrants rejected certain core doctrine of Calvinism which was the religion of the Dutch Republic. In response to the Five Articles of the Remonstrance, the Calvinists convened the state sanctioned Synod of Dort which condemned Arminianism and the Remonstrants as heretics as well as producing the Five Articles of Calvinism (TULIP).

Having been influenced by Arminian theology, one Anglican priest, John Wesley, with his brother Charles and their friend George Whitefield, started a revival movement within the Church of England where they became known as the Methodists. Due to their unorthodox preaching style which was derided by their opponent as their fanatical, as well as acting independent from the hierarchy of the Church of England, the group was separated from the Anglican Communion. Even within the group there were disagreements since Whitefield was a Calvinist unlike Wesley.

Though both the Remonstrants and the Methodists have similar beliefs systems especially in terms of soteriology where they both hold steadfast to Arminianism (except for the Calvinistic Methodists now known as the Welsh Presbyterians), they have completely different origins with one being Reformed while the other a Catholic-Reformed hybrid, and also even with soteriology there are slight differences especially in the areas of; atonement, apostosy, and perfection.

So between these two groups, what are the similarities and differences?

Note: do not bring up Calvinism, seriously! This is not a soteriological debate!!!

WisdomTree · Oct 29, 2013

Come on! Don't let this thread die like the previous one!!!

rockytopva · Oct 29, 2013

Should not this thread be renamed...

The Armenian Methodist vs The Calvinist Methodist

The John Wesley Methodist were Armenian you know.

MoreCoffee · Oct 29, 2013

rockytopva said:
Should not this thread be renamed...

The Armenian Methodist vs The Calvinist Methodist

The John Wesley Methodist were Armenian you know.

I think that brother WisdomTree wants to know how Arminians from the Dutch "Reformed" tradition differ from Arminians who come from the Anglican "Methodist" tradition. He wasn't asking about Calvinism.

WisdomTree · Oct 29, 2013

rockytopva said:
Should not this thread be renamed...

The Armenian Methodist vs The Calvinist Methodist

The John Wesley Methodist were Armenian you know.

I'm pretty sure John Wesley and his Methodists were English, not Armenian.

Did you read the OP?

MoreCoffee said:
I think that brother WisdomTree wants to know how Arminians from the Dutch "Reformed" tradition differ from Arminians who come from the Anglican "Methodist" tradition. He wasn't asking about Calvinism.

Exactly! So essentially a difference between Classical Arminianism and Wesleyan Arminianism.

Keachian · Oct 30, 2013

Just as a clarification your OP sort of glosses over Whitefield's Calvinism, I think it is on this and the bickering between Whitefield and Wesley on Soteriology is what Rocky is thinking you are wanting to talk about.

But in regards to the differences between Remonstrants and Wesleyans the main distinction as I understand it is that on whether or not one can lose their salvation. In other words from they would disagree on the Fifth article of Remonstrance, the Wesleyan would be more in line with the Calvinist position on this.

This distinction as I see it is one of the seeds to the antinomianism of certain strains of modern dispensationalism, however it is important to note having said this, all preachers of the Wesleyan/Whitefield revival heavily emphasised the Holiness of God and the Depravity of Man and called men to live lives that glorify God.

MoreCoffee · Oct 30, 2013

progmonk said:
Just as a clarification your OP sort of glosses over Whitefield's Calvinism

The OP does not gloss over "Methodist Calvinism" it intentionally excludes all calvinism because the question is about Arminian beliefs in Arminian denominations arising from Holland and Arminian denominations arising from England.

, I think it is on this and the bickering between Whitefield and Wesley on Soteriology is what Rocky is thinking you are wanting to talk about.

But in regards to the differences between Remonstrants and Wesleyans the main distinction as I understand it is that on whether or not one can lose their salvation. In other words from they would disagree on the Fifth article of Remonstrance, the Wesleyan would be more in line with the Calvinist position on this.

Remonstrants said:
Article 5
That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full persuasion of our mind.

Wesleyan Articles of Religion said:
13. Sin After Regeneration

234. We believe that after we have experienced regeneration, it is possible to fall into sin, for in this life there is no such height or strength of holiness from which it is impossible to fall. But by the grace of God one who has fallen into sin may by true repentance and faith find forgiveness and restoration.

This distinction as I see it is one of the seeds to the antinomianism of certain strains of modern dispensationalism, however it is important to note having said this, all preachers of the Wesleyan/Whitefield revival heavily emphasised the Holiness of God and the Depravity of Man and called men to live lives that glorify God.

Wesleyan Articles of Religion said:
14. Sanctification: Initial, Progressive, Entire

236. We believe that sanctification is that work of the Holy Spirit by which the child of God is separated from sin unto God and is enabled to love God with all the heart and to walk in all His holy commandments blameless. Sanctification is initiated at the moment of justification and regeneration.

From that moment there is a gradual or progressive sanctification as the believer walks with God and daily grows in grace and in a more perfect obedience to God. This prepares for the crisis of entire sanctification which is wrought instantaneously when believers present themselves as living sacrifices,

holy and acceptable to God, through faith in Jesus Christ, being effected by the baptism with the Holy Spirit who cleanses the heart from all inbred sin. The crisis of entire sanctification perfects the believer in love and empowers that person for effective service. It is followed by lifelong growth in grace and the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. The life of holiness continues through faith in the sanctifying blood of Christ and evidences itself by loving obedience to God’s revealed will.

WisdomTree · Oct 30, 2013

MoreCoffee said:
The OP does not gloss over "Methodist Calvinism" it intentionally excludes all calvinism because the question is about Arminian beliefs in Arminian denominations arising from Holland and Arminian denominations arising from England.

Again, thank you for your help on clarifying the matter.

Like MoreCoffee said, I have no interest in having another Arminian vs Calvinist debate or discussion for that matter since it is already being done to death while neglecting several other interesting schools of thoughts.

WisdomTree · Oct 30, 2013

Nothing huh?

rockytopva · Oct 30, 2013

The problem with the thread is that Wesley was Arminian. George Whitefield led a Calvinist revolt, but that did not go anywhere.

I find the churches as seven...

1. Ephesus – Apostolic – Leaving the first love… “All they which are in Asia be turned away from me…” – II Timothy 1:15
2. Smyrna – Martyrs – Persecutions ten days… Foxes Book of Martyrs describes ten Roman persecutions.
3. Pergamos – Orthodox – A pyrgos is a fortified structure – Needed for the dark ages.
4. Thyatira – Catholic – The Spirit of Jezebel is to persecute, control, and to dominate. This spirit can invade any church!
5. Sardis – Protestant – A sardius is a gem, elegant yet hard and rigid. Doctrine in the head, little in the heart. Calvinist
6. Philadelphia – Methodist – To obtain sanctification was to do so with love. Armenian
7. Laodicea – Charismatic – Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

Your true blue stocking Sardisean does not care about Philadelphia, which he discounts as 'emotional' and cautions at all accounts against emotion. For the Petes sake! Do not shed any tears!

George Whitefield attempted to make the Wesleyan revival, which was Philadelphian, Sardisean by bringing in John Calvin. His attempts basically died away. There may have been a Freewill Baptist church come out of it, but that is all. How many Freewill Baptist churches are there?

But the Wesleyan Armenian doctrine cascaded down through the Methodist, Pentecostal, and Charismatic churches.

WisdomTree · Oct 31, 2013

rockytopva said:
The problem with the thread is that Wesley was Arminian. George Whitefield led a Calvinist revolt, but that did not go anywhere.

I find the churches as seven...

1. Ephesus Apostolic Leaving the first love All they which are in Asia be turned away from me II Timothy 1:15
2. Smyrna Martyrs Persecutions ten days Foxes Book of Martyrs describes ten Roman persecutions.
3. Pergamos Orthodox A pyrgos is a fortified structure Needed for the dark ages.
4. Thyatira Catholic The Spirit of Jezebel is to persecute, control, and to dominate. This spirit can invade any church!
5. Sardis Protestant A sardius is a gem, elegant yet hard and rigid. Doctrine in the head, little in the heart. Calvinist
6. Philadelphia Methodist To obtain sanctification was to do so with love. Armenian
7. Laodicea Charismatic Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

Your true blue stocking Sardisean does not care about Philadelphia, which he discounts as 'emotional' and cautions at all accounts against emotion. For the Petes sake! Do not shed any tears!

George Whitefield attempted to make the Wesleyan revival, which was Philadelphian, Sardisean by bringing in John Calvin. His attempts basically died away. There may have been a Freewill Baptist church come out of it, but that is all. How many Freewill Baptist churches are there?

But the Wesleyan Armenian doctrine cascaded down through the Methodist, Pentecostal, and Charismatic churches.

Except that Wesleyan Arminian was different from the Classical Arminian which is the whole point of this thread!

PS You spelt Arminian wrong.

WisdomTree · Nov 10, 2013

Reviving thread.

rockytopva · Nov 10, 2013

WisdomTree said:
Reviving thread.

How about a Orthodox vs Catholic thread?

WisdomTree · Nov 10, 2013

rockytopva said:
How about a Orthodox vs Catholic thread?

Been there, done that. It never goes anywhere.

Biblicist · Nov 10, 2013

The title of this thread has certainly intrigued me, but I wonder if there are any forum members who really have the knowledge to speak on the topic. I know that I would be more than interested to see what anyone has to say on these two 'apparently' different strains.

WisdomTree · Nov 10, 2013

Biblicist said:
The title of this thread has certainly intrigued me, but I wonder if there are any forum members who really have the knowledge to speak on the topic. I know that I would be more than interested to see what anyone has to say on these two 'apparently' different strains.

Agreed, since it is common knowledge that Wesleyanism is just another variant of Arminianism or even a synonym since it was Methodism that first allowed it to become part of mainstream Christianity (whereas the Remonstrants just got relentlessly persecuted thus never really took off).

NorrinRadd · Nov 10, 2013

I realize that Wikipedia is not always considered a trustworthy source, but it is often convenient. Here is a direct link to the section of the Arminianism article that addresses the main differences between Wesleyan and Classical Arminianism.

WisdomTree · Nov 10, 2013

NorrinRadd said:
I realize that Wikipedia is not always considered a trustworthy source, but it is often convenient. Here is a direct link to the section of the Arminianism article that addresses the main differences between Wesleyan and Classical Arminianism.

Thanks for the info NorrinRadd!

MoreCoffee · Nov 10, 2013

rockytopva said:
How about a Orthodox vs Catholic thread?

I am very fond of Orthodoxy; if I were not Catholic then, God willing, I would be Orthodox

WisdomTree · Nov 10, 2013

MoreCoffee said:
I am very fond of Orthodoxy; if I were not Catholic then, God willing, I would be Orthodox

Which one?

Arminianism vs Wesleyanism

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