Arianism (What is that)?

Paine · Nov 16, 2010

Someone upthread mentioned Mormonism in the context of Arianism.

As someone who was a devout Mormon until my early twenties, I'd say Mormons do bear a strong whiff or Arianism but don't quite fit the strict definition. They hold that Jesus is the "Eldest of the Father's spirit children". The Holy Ghost is generally considered something of an enigma in Mormon theology, but is often speculated to be a God being on the order of Jesus who sacrificed gaining a flesh-and-bone body in order to perform his appointed function.

I had to hash this out quite a bit in my religious days as the Mormon view of the Trinity (or Godhead as they refer to it) is one of the primary bones of contention between them and mainstream Christians.

Korah · Nov 17, 2010

Paine said:
Someone upthread mentioned Mormonism in the context of Arianism.

As someone who was a devout Mormon until my early twenties, I'd say Mormons do bear a strong whiff or Arianism but don't quite fit the strict definition. They hold that Jesus is the "Eldest of the Father's spirit children". The Holy Ghost is generally considered something of an enigma in Mormon theology, but is often speculated to be a God being on the order of Jesus who sacrificed gaining a flesh-and-bone body in order to perform his appointed function.

I had to hash this out quite a bit in my religious days as the Mormon view of the Trinity (or Godhead as they refer to it) is one of the primary bones of contention between them and mainstream Christians.

I thought Mormons are regarded as Tritheists, thus neither Trinitarians nor Arians.

he-man · Nov 17, 2010

barbara van loo said:
So what are you meaning, everybody is a Son, and Jesus also or? And still don't know why hebrew 1:1 make a difference? I'm sorry i don't find the answer on my question,in youre messages. Still don't know why hebrew make a difference between Prophets (who are called sons in the bible cause everybody is called sons) and the Son, are the prophets also sons, or is Jesus the only son, what do you believe i don't get it..And what means Jesus the "Only begotten" Son?
Better give a short reaction and not lot of text cause then i don't get it.

Follow this link: The Only Begotten Son (ο μονογενης υιο&#962

In the Epistle to the Hebrews, it is said that when Abraham was ready to sacrifice Isaac he was offering up τον μονογενή, "his only-begotten" (11:17), because although Abraham had another son, God had said that only in Isaac shall Abraham's seed (σπερμ&#945 be named.

You can also study the meaning of these scriptures:
Heb 1:13 And to which of the angels has he ever said, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"?

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

John 1:18. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός,

John 3:18. He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God. τοῦ μονογενοῦς υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ

1 John 4:9. Herein was the love of God manifested in us, that God hath sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ

And so we see that in every occurrence John is using the word as a biological metaphor, in which Christ is the "Only Begotten Son" of the Father. The Only Begotten Son (ο μονογενης υιο&#962

barbara van loo · Nov 17, 2010

So you was a Christian, and became atheist? Why is that? Why you don't look further, for the truth?

Paine said:
Someone upthread mentioned Mormonism in the context of Arianism.

As someone who was a devout Mormon until my early twenties, I'd say Mormons do bear a strong whiff or Arianism but don't quite fit the strict definition. They hold that Jesus is the "Eldest of the Father's spirit children". The Holy Ghost is generally considered something of an enigma in Mormon theology, but is often speculated to be a God being on the order of Jesus who sacrificed gaining a flesh-and-bone body in order to perform his appointed function.

I had to hash this out quite a bit in my religious days as the Mormon view of the Trinity (or Godhead as they refer to it) is one of the primary bones of contention between them and mainstream Christians.

barbara van loo · Nov 17, 2010

Again still no answer, i get only links, but i ask about hebrew 1:1 and still don't get a answer right?

I don't get it what is mean with only begotten so what will the text say, he's get the name only begotten but he's not the only son?

So you say only begotten means not that he's the only son but make's him a unique son right? But hebrew 1:1 make's a difference between Prophets and Son, why is that, that I wanna know.

I say explain in youre own words because the text is to long to read and to difficult for me.

explain the text is youre own words cause it's to mutch and to difficult my english is not very good. and can you answer on my question about hebrew.

he-man said:
Follow this link: The Only Begotten Son (ο μονογενης υιο&#962

In the Epistle to the Hebrews, it is said that when Abraham was ready to sacrifice Isaac he was offering up τον μονογενή, "his only-begotten" (11:17), because although Abraham had another son, God had said that only in Isaac shall Abraham's seed (σπερμ&#945 be named.

You can also study the meaning of these scriptures:
Heb 1:13 And to which of the angels has he ever said, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"?

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

John 1:18. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός,

John 3:18. He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God. τοῦ μονογενοῦς υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ

1 John 4:9. Herein was the love of God manifested in us, that God hath sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ

And so we see that in every occurrence John is using the word as a biological metaphor, in which Christ is the "Only Begotten Son" of the Father. The Only Begotten Son (ο μονογενης υιο&#962

barbara van loo · Nov 17, 2010

You believe this?

'The biological metaphor, in which the Son (and only the Son) shares the genus of the Father, conveys the idea that Jesus Christ is a true genetic Son, having the same divine nature or essence as the Father."

he-man · Nov 17, 2010

barbara van loo said:
You believe this?

'The biological metaphor, in which the Son (and only the Son) shares the genus of the Father, conveys the idea that Jesus Christ is a true genetic Son, having the same divine nature or essence as the Father."

No, conveys the idea that Jesus Christ is a true genetic Son, who shall have the same divine nature or essence as the Father when the Father hands the Kingdom over to him.

Heb 1:13 And to which of the angels has he ever said, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"?

You must have missed

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Ignatius the Hermit · Nov 17, 2010

barbara van loo said:
But that are not Christians? How many arians are there in the world, where i can i read more about them, anybody know that? Are they on this site, or can i better ask somewhere else?

I suspect there are more out there than anyone knows. For instance, check this site out regarding an arian church:

Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church (Arian Catholic) - Home Page

It is true that Unitarians, Mormonism, and the Jehovah's Witnesses, would fall into this category. On the other hand, there are modalists, who believe Jesus is God, and that he is also the Spirit and the Father as well.

barbara van loo · Nov 17, 2010

Okee but what do you believe then about Jesus, what means it that he's the only begotten son, how do you see Jesus?

And still you don't explain why hebrew 1:1 speak about prophets and Son.. why i don't get a explaination?

Only what you do is copie bible verses but i want that you explain to me what you believe about Jesus, if you give me only bible verses i am never going to understand.

he-man said:
No, conveys the idea that Jesus Christ is a true genetic Son, who shall have the same divine nature or essence as the Father when the Father hands the Kingdom over to him.

Heb 1:13 And to which of the angels has he ever said, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"?

You must have missed

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

barbara van loo · Nov 17, 2010

But Uritarians and mormonism, is something different then arianism right?

I don't get it what aranism is, and what is teach, and are there people who call themselfs Arians or something like that, who follow arianism?

Kirkhaven said:
I suspect there are more out there than anyone knows. For instance, check this site out regarding an arian church:

Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church (Arian Catholic) - Home Page

It is true that Unitarians, Mormonism, and the Jehovah's Witnesses, would fall into this category. On the other hand, there are modalists, who believe Jesus is God, and that he is also the Spirit and the Father as well.

he-man · Nov 17, 2010

barbara van loo said:
But Uritarians and mormonism, is something different then arianism right?

I don't get it what aranism is, and what is teach, and are there people who call themselfs Arians or something like that, who follow arianism?

Go here to see what arians taught:
Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church - Introduction to Arian Catholicism

barbara van loo · Nov 17, 2010

Heman why your ignore my question about hebrew 1:1 and my other questions?

barbara van loo · Nov 17, 2010

barbara van loo said:
Okee but what do you believe then about Jesus, what means it that he's the only begotten son, how do you see Jesus?

And still you don't explain why hebrew 1:1 speak about prophets and Son.. why i don't get a explaination?

Only what you do is copie bible verses but i want that you explain to me what you believe about Jesus, if you give me only bible verses i am never going to understand.

This..

he-man · Nov 18, 2010

barbara van loo said:
Heman why your ignore my question about hebrew 1:1 and my other questions?

He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God. τοῦ μονογενοῦς υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ John 3:18.

How do you know if the Messiah is the Son of God?

Study the Bible, the covenant made with Abraham was to inherit the Land of Promise, that is carried on throughout all of the scripture.

That same covenant is carried over in the belief that Christ is the Messiah, the heir of that covenant.

That fact is explained by Mark:
"But those husbandmen said to themselves, This is the heir; come, we may dehumanize him, and the inheritance shall be ours". Mr 12:7

The whole Bible is based upon that Covenant, and until you can grasp that by asking God to "seek and find" you life will be in danger.

Heb 1:1 is explained by Heb 1:2 Where Christ is appointed the heir to the name "Son" of God. He is an heir because he is of the same linage as Abraham and obeyed God by submitting to DEATH, and was found a sacrifice thru that spotless offering to God as symbolized by the same way Abraham offered up Isaac.

While he was here among the disciples, he was a man, endowed with the POWER of the Holy Spirit.
After he was resurrected he is to become the High Priest and ruler of God's Kingdom, here on earth.

What is proven that he is more than just a common person, lies in the fact that he is NOW "Sitting at the right hand of God until God makes his enemies a footstool for his feet".

The footstool is symbolic of the "Kingdom" of God.
That is why Luke used the future tense and said, he shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Luk 1:32-33

In the Epistle to the Hebrews, it is said that when Abraham was ready to sacrifice Isaac he was offering up τον μονογενή, "his only-begotten" (11:17), because although Abraham had another son, God had said that only in Isaac shall Abraham's seed (σπερμ&#945 be named.

You can also study the meaning of these scriptures:
Heb 1:13 And to which of the angels has he ever said, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"?

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

John 1:18. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός,

1 John 4:9. Herein was the love of God manifested in us, that God hath sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ

Ignatius the Hermit · Nov 18, 2010

barbara van loo said:
But Uritarians and mormonism, is something different then arianism right?

I don't get it what aranism is, and what is teach, and are there people who call themselfs Arians or something like that, who follow arianism?

Yes, they are different, but essentially they do not accept the doctrine of the Trinity. Understand that history is often written by the those who are in control. For instance, in the early church, there were several gospels that were used by the various churches spread out across the known world at that time. The early Christians did not have a site like Christianforums, telephones, or even books and commentaries as we do now. So it is easy to understand that different churches could develop different doctrines based on erroneous scriptures. But it should also be noted that protestant Christians still debate and divide over various doctrines based on their own interpretations or readings from the New Testament. Are they all true, are some of them true, or are they all false? Who determines what exactly?

In 325 C.E., a Church council was called together by the Emperor Constantine to bring unity to his empire, and the church. One of the major things discussed at the council were the teachings of Arius, a priest who espoused the notion that Jesus was not divine. In has been positied by several christina and secular historians that 'Arianism' may have been what the majority of Christianity believed at that time. In either case, the council produced the Nicene creed which endorses the doctrine of the Trinity--thus making it official dogma of the church that Jesus was God manifested in the flesh. Arains were branded heretics, and in the northern kingdoms were hunted down by the authorites and killed.

You and I both know that 'the Lord our God is One'. That there can be no others beside Him. Jews believe that, Christians would agree with that (hence why the doctrine of the Trinity helps explain how they can hold this position), and of course Muslims believe that there is only one God. Jesus never claimed equality with God, and indeed, never said he was God. Some may say that he claimed it in John's Gospel--which clearly goes out of it's way to promote the divinity of Jesus.

Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses are considered to be cults (heresies) to the Church because tehy have some doctrines which do not fall in line with the majority of Christendom. Arains fall into the same category because the Trinity became official dogma in the 4th century.

barbara van loo · Nov 18, 2010

Still no answer.

Everybody is called Sons of God in the bible, so to you bible everybody is called a son, why make hebrew 1:1 then a difference between Prophets and Son?

he-man said:
He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God. τοῦ μονογενοῦς υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ John 3:18.

How do you know if the Messiah is the Son of God?

Study the Bible, the covenant made with Abraham was to inherit the Land of Promise, that is carried on throughout all of the scripture.

That same covenant is carried over in the belief that Christ is the Messiah, the heir of that covenant.

That fact is explained by Mark:
"But those husbandmen said to themselves, This is the heir; come, we may dehumanize him, and the inheritance shall be ours". Mr 12:7

The whole Bible is based upon that Covenant, and until you can grasp that by asking God to "seek and find" you life will be in danger.

Heb 1:1 is explained by Heb 1:2 Where Christ is appointed the heir to the name "Son" of God. He is an heir because he is of the same linage as Abraham and obeyed God by submitting to DEATH, and was found a sacrifice thru that spotless offering to God as symbolized by the same way Abraham offered up Isaac.

While he was here among the disciples, he was a man, endowed with the POWER of the Holy Spirit.
After he was resurrected he is to become the High Priest and ruler of God's Kingdom, here on earth.

What is proven that he is more than just a common person, lies in the fact that he is NOW "Sitting at the right hand of God until God makes his enemies a footstool for his feet".

The footstool is symbolic of the "Kingdom" of God.
That is why Luke used the future tense and said, he shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Luk 1:32-33

In the Epistle to the Hebrews, it is said that when Abraham was ready to sacrifice Isaac he was offering up τον μονογενή, "his only-begotten" (11:17), because although Abraham had another son, God had said that only in Isaac shall Abraham's seed (σπερμ&#945 be named.

You can also study the meaning of these scriptures:
Heb 1:13 And to which of the angels has he ever said, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"?

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

John 1:18. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός,

1 John 4:9. Herein was the love of God manifested in us, that God hath sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ

Ignatius the Hermit · Nov 18, 2010

barbara van loo said:
Still no answer.

Everybody is called Sons of God in the bible, so to you bible everybody is called a son, why make hebrew 1:1 then a difference between Prophets and Son?

Yes; all believers are called sons of God. It means they will be saved and are in a familial relationship with God. The title is found through out the scriptures. Adam is called a son of God as well in Luke's gospel account. However, Jesus is unique, hence why it is often emphasized that he is the only-begotten son of God. We have been adopted, but according to the scriptures, Jesus seems to have always been the Son of God.

he-man · Nov 18, 2010

barbara van loo said:
Still no answer.

Everybody is called Sons of God in the bible, so to you bible everybody is called a son, why make hebrew 1:1 then a difference between Prophets and Son?

I just told you. What is your native language?

Heb 1:1 is explained by Heb 1:2 Where Christ is appointed the heir to the name "Son" of God. He is an heir because he is of the same linage as Abraham and obeyed God by submitting to DEATH, and was found a sacrifice thru that spotless offering to God as symbolized by the same way Abraham offered up Isaac.

How do you know if the Messiah is the Son of God?

Study the Bible, the covenant made with Abraham was to inherit the Land of Promise, that is carried on throughout all of the scripture.

That same covenant is carried over in the belief that Christ is the Messiah, the heir of that covenant.

That fact is explained by Mark:
"But those husbandmen said to themselves, This is the heir; come, we may dehumanize him, and the inheritance shall be ours". Mr 12:7

The whole Bible is based upon that Covenant, and until you can grasp that by asking God by "seeking and finding" your life will be in danger.

1 John 4:9. Herein was the love of God manifested in us, that God hath sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ

barbara van loo · Nov 18, 2010

My native language is dutch so i'm sorry my english is not very well.

You say he's of the same linage as abraham, but i don't understand why that is a explanation on my question, look to the reaction above from kirkhaven that looks to me more on a explanation. Youre answers don't give a explantion of hebrew 1:1,2 , cause it isn't explaining why the verse make a difference between Prophets who are called also sons in the bible and Jesus who's called son. I don't understand why that verses make a difference between Prophets and Son, cause all people are called sons in the bible, when you look only to that verses it looks like of Jesus is called the only son, what's the difference between the so called sons in the bible and Jesus who's called son of God. I don't get it.
I don't understand what it have to do with abraham, i ask you of you see Jesus as the only son but i get no reaction. The text you a writing says only that he's of the same linage as Abraham but what have that to do with my question then, you mean he's called the son, but he's not the only one? Or how must i understand it then?

The verse state clearly that first God send his message to Prophets and then to his Son, so looks like of the verse state Jesus is the only son, but how do you understand it then.

so you mean Abraham must offer his only begotten son you say, but he wasen't the only son, and same story with Jesus?

But hebrew 1:2 says something different cause it clearly stays that the prophets are not sons and Jesus is a son. So what to think about the verse.

Cause youre only give verses and no explanation i don't understand it.

he-man said:
I just told you. What is your native language?

Heb 1:1 is explained by Heb 1:2 Where Christ is appointed the heir to the name "Son" of God. He is an heir because he is of the same linage as Abraham and obeyed God by submitting to DEATH, and was found a sacrifice thru that spotless offering to God as symbolized by the same way Abraham offered up Isaac.

How do you know if the Messiah is the Son of God?

Study the Bible, the covenant made with Abraham was to inherit the Land of Promise, that is carried on throughout all of the scripture.

That same covenant is carried over in the belief that Christ is the Messiah, the heir of that covenant.

That fact is explained by Mark:
"But those husbandmen said to themselves, This is the heir; come, we may dehumanize him, and the inheritance shall be ours". Mr 12:7

The whole Bible is based upon that Covenant, and until you can grasp that by asking God by "seeking and finding" your life will be in danger.

1 John 4:9. Herein was the love of God manifested in us, that God hath sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ

barbara van loo · Nov 18, 2010

Great, finally a explanation what i understand, own words and not only verses, ok thanks for youre explanation.

Second, one question, when you look to hebrew 1:1,2 it says first we send to prophets and then to his son, but then the vers says that the prophets are not sons right? cause the verse make a difference between prophets and son. I don't understand why it is, that all people are called sons in the bible, and then the verse says, first prophets, and then son, cause the prophets where also called "sons" right? When you look at the verse it look like it says that prophets are not sons but Jesus he is a son.

How to look at that?

But i think you believe Jesus is God, am i right?

Kirkhaven said:
Yes; all believers are called sons of God. It means they will be saved and are in a familial relationship with God. The title is found through out the scriptures. Adam is called a son of God as well in Luke's gospel account. However, Jesus is unique, hence why it is often emphasized that he is the only-begotten son of God. We have been adopted, but according to the scriptures, Jesus seems to have always been the Son of God.

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