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Hoping2

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So are you saying that people become sinlessly perfect once they're saved?
"Saved" is kind of a misnomer, as the determination of our eternal end will only be determined on the day of resurrection from the dead.
I believe that if a man's turn from (repentance from) sin is real, he won't sin again.
As Acts 2:38 says the repentant-washed will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, (who won't dwell in a polluted temple), it seems only reasonable to say we can live without sin hence forth.
 
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BibleBeliever1611

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What about being born again. When you receive Christ as savior you become born again. It's determined at the moment you get saved. You cannot become un-born, can never lose salvation.
 
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Hoping2

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What about being born again.
That is absolutely necessary.
It occurs when we are "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life", at our "immersion" into Christ, His death, burial, and resurrection, at our water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins. (Rom 6:2-7)
When you receive Christ as savior you become born again.
I disagree.
It's determined at the moment you get saved.
I will await God's judgement before jumping to conclusions.
You cannot become un-born, can never lose salvation.
I tend to agree with you; as that salvation will be granted on the last day and there will be no more temptations after that.
But I also view it like this...those who continue to serve sin were never "converted" in the first place.
 
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BibleBeliever1611

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That's a false gospel. You're teaching work your way to heaven and if you believe that you're not saved.

Once you're saved no matter what you do, you're always saved. Salvation has nothing to do with your lifestyle. It has to do whether you've put your faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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Hoping2

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"False gospel" ?
The gospel is that Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the dead.
What in my post counters that ?

Jesus said... they who endure until the end will be saved.
Is that also a works salvation to you ?
 
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BibleBeliever1611

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"False gospel" ?
The gospel is that Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the dead.
What in my post counters that ?

Jesus said... they who endure until the end will be saved.
Is that also a works salvation to you ?
That's talking about enduring tribulations in the end times. Christians who endure those things will be saved but it's not talking about being saved from hell.
 
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Hoping2

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That's talking about enduring tribulations in the end times. Christians who endure those things will be saved but it's not talking about being saved from hell.
I disagree.
Every man will answer for his deeds.
It is written..."Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good,..." (Rom 2:6-10)
 
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BibleBeliever1611

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Obeying the truth is obeying the gospel. Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. That's what gets you saved.
 
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Hoping2

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Are you trying to be clever? Yeah I never said otherwise. But it's obedience by repenting of false religion and believing on Jesus, no works involved.
The only works written against in the bible were the works of the Law. (circumcision, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, tithing, dietary rules, etc.)
If we believe in Jesus, we will do what He says.
That would be, loving God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength; and loving our neighbors as ourselves.
Those addicted to sin, cannot do that.
 
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BibleBeliever1611

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Those are things that you should do as a Christian. But you don't have to feel like you have to.
 
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Hoping2

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GaryMac

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Sin is not an addiction, sin is deliberate separation from God to not be exactly as He is and in His same image that of Spirit, the Spirit of Love that God is. Killing, stealing chasing the neighbors wife isn not sin, those things are only results from that one sin that God cannot forgive nor overlook and that is separation from Him and not be anointed of the Spirit god is, which would be Christ in you.

In Matt 5:48 there is a command, not a request, that we be perfect even as God in heaven is perfect. In that it is impossible to be in sin cannot sin because we are born of God. 1 John 3:9. He takes away the sins of this world and plants righteousness, holiness, in us by that same reunion with God that Jesus experienced in Matt 3:16 when He was united with God by the same Spirit that God is. Jesus described his renewing of mind as born again and we must be and have the same if we are to be of his God at all. And we are no different at all.

If one is not as Jesus was in the Father, then one has chosen that sin to be without yourself.
 
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Light of the East

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Why would you hope for such a horrible thing ?
It is written..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
I honestly hope you will take Paul's plea to heart !

Because it is very easy to be deceived in this life, as evidenced by the multitude of various Protestant denominations, all of whom claim to be teaching the absolute truth of God, and yet all of whom disagree with each other. It is also easy to misunderstand the Scriptures by taking one verse out of context of the rest of the Scriptures. And the idea of living a life completely without sin goes against what the Church has taught for 2,000 years and the experience of those men and women who truly are holy, the monks and nuns of the Church.

Let's just do a checkup, if I might?

Do you fast during the fasting seasons of the Church?
Do you give away all your excess financial goods? Not just a little, everything other than what you need to live.
Do you "Pray without ceasing?" Have you held any all-night prayer vigils? Do you have a set prayer routine involving Morning and Evening Prayers?
Do you obey all the teachings and doctrines of the Church without fail?

Lack of any of these things is sin.

And let's say that you could say yes to all these things. When you pray, are you attentive, or does your mind wander. Do you have to push yourself to pray?

Here is one final question:



This is Saint Paisios of Athos, one of the great holy saints of the Church in the 20th century. Do you do everything that he did in his life? I ask this because this is a man who is a paragon of holiness.

If your life is not life St. Paisios, or exceeding his life, then I must reject any claim you might make that you are living a sinless life.
 
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Hoping2

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It sure can be easy, but with the gift of the Holy Ghost, that is not going to happen.
And the idea of living a life completely without sin goes against what the Church has taught for 2,000 years and the experience of those men and women who truly are holy, the monks and nuns of the Church.
So Paul was deluding us with his hopes in 1 Cor 15:34 ?
Was Jesus deceived when He commanded..."Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt 5:48)
Was Peter deceived when he wrote..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
Was John deceived when he wrote..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:4-9)
And...“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)

I think the deceived are those professing Christ from within the darkness.
Let's just do a checkup, if I might?
Do you fast during the fasting seasons of the Church?
The Church by Christ Jesus (Eph. 3:21), has no fasting season.
Everyday is a separation from the flesh, affections, and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
Do you give away all your excess financial goods? Not just a little, everything other than what you need to live.
No: as without the things God provides for my nourishment and protection, I wouldn't be serving Him on a computer.
Do you "Pray without ceasing?"
Yes.
Have you held any all-night prayer vigils?
I see no need to keep repeating what has already been asked and thanked Him for.
Do you have a set prayer routine involving Morning and Evening Prayers?
Yes.
Do you obey all the teachings and doctrines of the Church without fail?
Yes.
Lack of any of these things is sin.
Bologna.
Show any place where Jesus or His apostles commanded all night prayer vigils.
And let's say that you could say yes to all these things. When you pray, are you attentive, or does your mind wander. Do you have to push yourself to pray?
Are all those things what you do ?
Don't you realize that you are just condemning yourself ?
I thank God He never commanded such things of men.
His commands are fulfilled in this...Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength...and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
Anything else is just the doctrines of men.
I've never heard of Him. But then again, the saint are not desirous of vain glory.What would he say to your efforts to verify your POV of a church that does not teach it is possible to live without sin ?
I quote you..." And the idea of living a life completely without sin goes against what the Church has taught for 2,000 years" Jesus commanded it, and so did His Father, who said..."Be ye holy for I am holy."
This is Saint Paisios of Athos, one of the great holy saints of the Church in the 20th century. Do you do everything that he did in his life? I ask this because this is a man who is a paragon of holiness.
If he was such a man, then he could witness on my behalf that it is possible to live without sinning.
If your life is not life St. Paisios, or exceeding his life, then I must reject any claim you might make that you are living a sinless life.
If he can do it, so can you.
If Jesus could do it, so can you.
If I can do it, thanks to the great mercy and grace of God, (and the gifts of repentance from sin, baptism for the remission of past sins, and rebirth from God's seed), so can you.
 
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Light of the East

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It sure can be easy, but with the gift of the Holy Ghost, that is not going to happen.

That's quite funny because every person who would disagree with you would appeal to the Holy Spirit as leading them. I find it humorous, in a very sad way, to see how many different Protestant denominations and/or people all claim that the Holy Spirit is leading them into all truth, and yet they don't agree on many issues. Is the Holy Spirit that schizophrenic, or are they deceived? I vote for the latter.
It is cults who take verses out of context and make a whole religion out of what they believe from those verses.

If we were to never sin again, there would be no need for priests and the Sacrament of Confession.

The Church by Christ Jesus (Eph. 3:21), has no fasting season.

This shows that you have no idea what the Church is, its history, or where it is to be found. Here is some information for you:
Fasting in the Orthodox Church has deep historical roots, stemming from Jewish traditions and further shaped by early Christian ascetics and the Church's developing liturgical structure. It is a practice of abstaining from certain foods and sometimes other activities for spiritual reasons, primarily to cultivate closer communion with God, practice self-discipline, and prepare for major feasts.

Here's a more detailed look at the history:
1. Jewish Roots and Early Christian Practice:
  • The Old Testament provides numerous examples of fasting, both individual and communal, often associated with mourning, repentance, and times of need.

  • Jesus himself fasted for forty days in the desert, and he taught his disciples about fasting, emphasizing sincerity and humility. (NOTE: We are called to be like Jesus, to emulate Him in our lives as much as possible as we grow into His likeness. Fasting is part of that.)
  • Early Christians adopted the practice, with the Didache (a first-century text) mentioning fasting on Wednesdays and Fridays, a practice that continues in the Orthodox Church. (The Orthodox Church is the Church. All other denominations and sects are outside the Church which Jesus established upon the Apostles. Do you remember what Jesus said in regard to His Body, the Church? He said that if a man will not hear the Church, let him be as a pagan to you.)

  • Wednesday was chosen to commemorate Judas's betrayal, and Friday to commemorate the crucifixion.
2. Development of Fasting Periods:
  • Over time, the Church formalized fasting periods, such as Great Lent (before Pascha/Easter), the Nativity Fast (Advent), the Apostles' Fast, and the Dormition Fast.

  • These periods, often coinciding with significant events or feasts, provide structured times for spiritual preparation and growth.

  • Great Lent, the most prominent of these, is a 40-day fast (plus Holy Week) preceding Pascha, mirroring Christ's time in the wilderness.

  • The length and intensity of fasting vary depending on the season and the specific fast.
3. Ascetic Influence and Monastic Practices:
  • Ascetics, particularly the Desert Fathers, played a significant role in shaping fasting practices.

  • For them, fasting was not just about food but a means of subduing passions, purifying the soul, and drawing closer to God.

  • Monastic traditions further developed fasting rules and practices, which eventually influenced the wider Church.
4. Key Aspects of Orthodox Fasting:
  • Food Restrictions:
    Typically, Orthodox fasting involves abstaining from meat, dairy products, and (in some cases) fish and olive oil.

  • Spiritual Discipline:
    Fasting is seen as a way to cultivate self-control, humility, and a deeper connection with God.

  • Preparation for Feasts:
    Fasting is a way to prepare both physically and spiritually for major feasts, particularly Pascha.

  • Community Practice:
    Fasting is often done as a community, fostering mutual support and shared spiritual growth.
Show any place where Jesus or His apostles commanded all night prayer vigils.

As stated before, Christ is our pattern. He went and prayed all night. If we are called to such a life, we should do it.

Are all those things what you do ?

No. I try to do them. I fail, I confess, and I continue to try. Some of them I am not called to do, such as the monastic life, all-night prayer vigils, and extreme fasting. I attempt the regular fasts of the Church.


Don't you realize that you are just condemning yourself ?

Obeying the dictates of the Church which Christ gave to the apostles is hardly a way to condemn one's self. Obedience is one of the primary ways in which we show love to Christ, and obeying His Church is prime.

I thank God He never commanded such things of men.

God speaks through His Church. He does not speak outside the Church, hence, He has never given mankind things such as Calvinism, the Baptist doctrines, or any of the thousands of other man-made sects and religions that call themselves Christian. The fullness of the Christian faith is found in obedience to Christ through His Church and the authority which He vested in the leaders of the Church.

His commands are fulfilled in this...Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength...and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
Anything else is just the doctrines of men.

You love God by obeying His Church and His commandments. Love is not feeling. It is action. Doing the works which He gives to us show Him our love for Him. The same is true for men. Love acts in ways that show love to others - feeding the hungry, caring for the poor, praying for the dead. Love is not a feeling nor good thoughts. Love works.

I've never heard of Him. But then again, the saint are not desirous of vain glory.What would he say to your efforts to verify your POV of a church that does not teach it is possible to live without sin ?

St. Paisios's teachings on sin are rooted in the Orthodox Christian tradition and emphasize the importance of repentance, prayer, and humility in overcoming sin and finding healing in God's love. You should watch this video about him.

 
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Hoping2

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Didn't Jesus say the truth would make us free ?
Free from serving/committing sin ? (John 8:32-34)
So what "truth" are you referencing ?
It is cults who take verses out of context and make a whole religion out of what they believe from those verses.
So true.
If we were to never sin again, there would be no need for priests and the Sacrament of Confession.
Praise the Lord, as Jesus is our Priest now.
But aren't you justifying sin, with your church's doings ?
It seems, that you think your church's rites, necessitate sin. ??
 
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