• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Are we just trying to understand the inconceivable?

Radagast

comes and goes
Site Supporter
Dec 10, 2003
23,896
9,862
✟344,471.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Here's an interesting excerpt from IEP that is helpfully succinct:

And then it goes on to point out that Anselm was not a libertarian: "Anselm rejects the notion that one must be able to act in ways other than they do in order to be free."
 
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

zippy2006

Dragonsworn
Nov 9, 2013
7,640
3,846
✟299,338.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
And then it goes on to point out that Anselm was not a libertarian: "Anselm rejects the notion that one must be able to act in ways other than they do in order to be free."

Supposing Anselm is an exception, how would that affect the point I was making to redleg? Regardless, it is not clear that Anselm is an exception given his "two-wills" account of freedom, which strongly distinguishes him from Calvin even if it doesn't fully land him in modern libertarian waters.
 
Upvote 0

zippy2006

Dragonsworn
Nov 9, 2013
7,640
3,846
✟299,338.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Now the other part. Did the Sanhedrin, high priest and Pilate choose to act the way they did?

Lol, sure.

God is not an efficient-causal created reality... As an analogy, material beings cannot occupy the same space or occupy two discrete spaces at the same time, and yet God is omnipresent.
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,117
34,056
Texas
✟199,236.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Lol, sure.

God is not an efficient-causal created reality... As an analogy, material beings cannot occupy the same space or occupy two discrete spaces at the same time, and yet God is omnipresent.
Indeed. Yet He is living and active in our very lives. Thanks be to God.

The libertarian view (not your view of course) evokes a deistic enlightenment understanding. That is what presents itself on many of these threads.
 
Reactions: mark kennedy
Upvote 0

Radagast

comes and goes
Site Supporter
Dec 10, 2003
23,896
9,862
✟344,471.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Did the Sanhedrin, high priest and Pilate choose to act the way they did?

Libertarians are generally scared to answer that question.... because either Pilate etc. were predestined to do what they did, or else (the open theist answer) God wasn't quite sure whether it would all work out as planned.

Don't expect a straight answer.
 
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,297
Tuscany
✟255,207.00
Country
Italy
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
How about you answer my post no. 84?

And @redleghunter , or you, could reply to my no. 85.

Then I'll answer your question about Pilot, Mary, etc.
 
Upvote 0

Tutorman

Charismatic Episcopalian
Jun 20, 2017
1,637
1,350
54
california
✟118,256.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Episcopalian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican

Sola Scriptura makes one their own authority, their own pope
 
Reactions: zippy2006
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,117
34,056
Texas
✟199,236.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Not really. Every man does what he will with the Bible who is Bible only. A quite silly doctrine
That's not Sola Scriptura but your own straw man.

Of course we get the antics of Tetzel from Sola Ecclesia.
 
Upvote 0

Tutorman

Charismatic Episcopalian
Jun 20, 2017
1,637
1,350
54
california
✟118,256.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Episcopalian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
That's not Sola Scriptura but your own straw man.

Of course we get the antics of Tetzel from Sola Ecclesia.

I really don't care about Tetzel, I am not Catholic. Sola Scriptura is a straw man and I done talking about such a d\silly thing it is NWMTOE.
 
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,297
Tuscany
✟255,207.00
Country
Italy
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This was to Zippy.
I don't read whole threads.

You've explained libertarian free will correctly. I have THE CHOICE to have either oatmeal or eggs for breakfast. MY choice. God has nothing to do with it but He knew in advance what I was going to choose.
His knowing in advance does not affect my choice.

Compatiblist free will was not explained correctly by you. This states that God determines WHAT you will have for breakfast and then HE MAKES YOU want that choice. He changes your mind to make it be in tune with HIS, or COMPATIBLE with His.

We should at least be honest when explaining a theological understanding -- unless, of course, even you don't understand it. Which you should.

It may be objected, that these are special examples which cannot be regarded as a general rule. They are sufficient, at all events, to prove the point for which I contend, viz., that whenever God is pleased to make way for his providence, he even in external matters so turns and bends the wills of men, that whatever the freedom of their choice may be, it is still subject to the disposal of God. That your mind depends more on the agency of God than the freedom of your own choice, daily experience teaches.

source: The Institutes of Calvin
 
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,297
Tuscany
✟255,207.00
Country
Italy
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
He told us in Luke 8:10

So some can hear and some not.

Again Jesus tells us in Luke 8:10


None of which address many are called few are chosen.
You're just repeating the question which I've already answered. We were speaking about Luke 8:10.
Read my reply in no. 85 again and MAYBE answer it?
Why do YOU think God spoke in parables? Because He doesn't desire all men to be saved...as you believe?

No. There are too many verses against this idea...
John 3:16
John 12:32

Where did they get the approved garment? How did they merit the garment?
They merit the garment by accepting God's condition: Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. Acts 16:31


Indeed. I guess God is just waiting for people to accept Jesus to Predestinate them.
God does not predestinate anyone to salvation and thus to hell. He offers each person the possibility to be saved. Foreknowing something does not cause it to happen.


Of course. The many were called and the few were chosen. You seem to think somehow the people at the banquet merited the garment that was acceptable.
Absolutely. This is what the bible teaches from Genesis on.

Why was the person not dressed properly thrown out of the Wedding Banquet? Because he was not dressed properly...NOT because God just felt like throwing him out for no reason at all, which is what calvinists believe. Incorrectly, of course.



Yes the Gospel is a command to all. God saves some of us but not all. We are all condemned and God in His Mercy and Grace saves some.
God in His mercy saves some???
No.
God in His mercy saves ALL who DESIRE to be saved.
Praise God I serve a God that is a loving, merciful and just God.

You, OTOH, serve a whimsical God, or might I say, you server a person named Calvin, that changed the nature of the one true and Almighty and Sovereign God.

To whom calvinists give very little respect in changing His nature after 1,500 years of Christian theology.



So our efforts to understand God’s parables in some way merits us to be chosen by Him?

Don't know where you got this idea.
 
Upvote 0

Radagast

comes and goes
Site Supporter
Dec 10, 2003
23,896
9,862
✟344,471.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single

Well, the difficulty with that, and the driving force behind the growth of open theism among Arminians, is that you can only take the action that God foresaw. If God foresees the future, then the future must happen as foreseen.

Compatiblist free will was not explained correctly by you. This states that God determines WHAT you will have for breakfast and then HE MAKES YOU want that choice. He changes your mind to make it be in tune with HIS, or COMPATIBLE with His.

The "compatible" in "compatibilism" refers to "compatible with determinism," not "compatible with God." See: Compatibilism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

And, "Calvinism" does not mean "following Calvin" (which is why I would personally prefer the labels "Reformed" or "Monergist"). I do agree with the Calvin quote you posted, though: it's entirely Biblical.
 
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,297
Tuscany
✟255,207.00
Country
Italy
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well, the difficulty with that, and the driving force behind the growth of open theism among Arminians, is that you can only take the action that God foresaw. If God foresees the future, then the future must happen as foreseen.
Knowing the future does not cause it to happen.
You don't believe this,,,fine. You're an intelligent person, I won't waste time with examples.


you're right because it is a philosophical in nature and beginnings,,,,but the reformed religion teaches that God makes your hearts desire compatible with His by changing what you desire.

Would you agree that the reformed Church follows the teachings of the Institutes of Calvin?
 
Upvote 0