Are we already planned to go to Heaven/Hell?

There is another forum I have been on that states there are translation issues with the fact that hell is eternal. There is also a book called the apocolypse of peter (one of the 12 deciples) which also indicates that hell is not eternal but that the torment is for so long and they go on to live on a world in peace but not with God. I have wondered if that world we are on now is not that place and we keep recycling until we get it right. Maybe God does not know what choise we will make, I have not finished reading the new testimate but have read much of the old testimate and by actually reading the bible you learn that alot of stuff you learn is church is made up and is not found anywhere in any scriptures. You also have to watch out for translation and context issues as well.

Kite said:

I was wondering if God already has a plan and knows if we'll enter Heaven or descend into Hell? If we were born with free will, then why are we already determined where we'll go? Since God is outside of time, he can see an individual's life until his/her death. He already knows what choices we'll make, right? But how can he already know where to put us when we have free will to choose whatever path we take?

I'm confused...@_@

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I look at it this way. Think of your favorite movie, one that you have seen dozens of times. Look at the decisions that the central character makes througout the film. It is likely that there will be decisions that that character makes that you wish they didn't. When you watch the movie, there is still a part of you that hopes that they will not make the decisions that create the conflict in the film. However, you know that they will, because that is how the story goes. You didn't write the script; you didn't make the character do anything; but, you still know what they are going to do before they do it.

I think it is the same way with God. He may very well, in His omniscience, know what we are going to choose. But, he didn't write the script, and he is not making us do those things. He is simply allowing us to make the choices that we are going to make, even though he already knows the consequences we are going to pay. He loves us enough to allow us to make the choice anyway.

Kite said:

I was wondering if God already has a plan and knows if we'll enter Heaven or descend into Hell? If we were born with free will, then why are we already determined where we'll go? Since God is outside of time, he can see an individual's life until his/her death. He already knows what choices we'll make, right? But how can he already know where to put us when we have free will to choose whatever path we take?

I'm confused...@_@

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You are not the first to ask these questions and you won't be the last. The question of free will vs predestination has been bothering people for at least 500 years, and quite possibly far longer.

An "easy" answer is that God's knowledge is not necessarily the same as His will. But since God is All-powerful, All-loving, and All-merciful, as well as being All-knowing, it is difficult to understand why He permits people to be born who, as He already knows, must face eternal torment.

Search, either within this site, or on Google, for pages with the words "Calvinism" and "Armenianism" and you should find discussions by persons who have given this question a lot more study than either you or I have.

Be careful not to speak about the other alternative called Christian Universalism in here... tis not allowed.

The predestination problem seems to have first been considered with some care by Boethius and Augustine. It can be seen to have some hints in the letters of Paul (i.e. Romans, Ephesians) which suggest that some people are chosen by God before their creation to be saved, while presumably those who have not heard the Gospel or responded to it are damned.

It seems more important in Latin theology than in the Greek East because the Latin church (more influenced by Augustine) focused more on the consequences of Adam's sin and fall on later generations of humanity than the East, which talks more about the Incarnation and people being able to take part in the life of God. Augustine's solution and also that of Boethius try to reconcile the doctrines concerning God's nature and attributes (such as eternity, omnipotence, omniescence, etc) while not turning God into some kind of necessity (i.e. if God truely predestines someone from all eternity to damnation even before they are born, and another to eternal life, it seems to imply the agent has no real free choice and therefore good and evil and hence merit or demerit, which make a person worthy of heaven or hell, cannot be imputed to that agent) which cannot be reconciled with free will. Augustine appealed to mystery of God's will to some extent but believed it was true that God did allow the majority of humanity to perish in hell while some were graciously saved entirely by God's free choice and grace. Augustine believed this was possible while still not turning this into some necessity whereby no agent could be truely said to be free because God had already determined their fate before birth.

Aquinas and the medieval theologians seemed to accept this teaching, though the more extreme elements later adopted by Calvin and Luther don't seem to have been adopted. The church seemed to struggle against 'Semi-Pelagianism' for a while and the debate continued into the Reformation with people such as Calvin, Luther and Molina arguing over whether God predestines salvation or there is any true choice on the part of the person saved. The Catholic Church seemed to adopt the position that human free will, moved by grace, plays a key role in salvation, while the Reformist fathers believed that the human will cannot will anything good (when it comes to salvation) unless it is moved and healed by God's grace. Salvation for the reformers always seemed to be a sheer gratuitous thing achieved by God's grace alone, and without it, fallen humanity is totally corrupted and cannot do anything to achieve salvation.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says that 'No-one is predestined to hell' and that for someone to be damned, that person needs to commit a mortal sin and to persist in that sin to the end without repenting (final impenitence). In other words, there has to be a free rejection of God and his grace for someone to be damned. That seems to imply that while God knows from all eternity whether that person will be saved or not, God does not by sheer necessity determine that person's fate from all eternity. The Reformed churches on the other hand, still seem to hold onto the confessions of their faiths which clearly state salvation is by grace alone and not by any merit of our part, and that implies if someone is damned, God does so through his counsel from all eternity.

The eternity of God and the problem of predestination are still vigorously discussed (i.e Stump and Kretzmann came up with some good papers) but there seems to be no coherent agreement. As with other philosophical questions and puzzles, there doesn't seem to be a simple solution.

Dear Kite. God wants us all to be with Him for eternity, God loves us, God made us in His image, and God gave us 10 Commandments, to either follow them, or ignore them, or do as we please. God does NOT force us in any way. Jesus, God-Son, gave His Life and Blood, to pay for our sins, because that is what God`s Holy Law demanded. Jesus died for us, now we are free to return to God, where we came from in the beginning. Jesus, our Saviour gave us 2 Commandments, they contain all what God`s 10 Commandments told us. IF, as some wrongly believe, God has already planned to send us either to Heaven, or to Hell, why was it necessary for God to give us His Commandments to either follow them, or NOT ? Why was it necessaray for Jesus to come to Earth, to pay our debt, and die on the Cross for us? All we have to do now, Kite, is to REPENT, to exchange our selfish and wilful character into a loving/caring one. To love God first, with all our being, and to love all others, whether friend or foe, AS WE would like tobe loved, or treated by others. This is not easy, but Jesus will help and guide us, if we ask Him in prayer, and God will forgive us every time we fall or stumble. God cann see our hearts, He knows our thoughts and wishes, and if we ask sincerely, God will forgive us, as we forgive others. Once we start to try to become as God wants us to be, we will find that Jesus gives us His Love, Joy and Peace, to share with all others. To find out this wonderful truth, to will have to give God a chance to see for Himself the love you have in you. I say this humbly and with love. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

"Are we already planned to go to Heaven/Hell?"
No. That is the heresy of "pre-destination"...it's a heresy. With "pre-destination" there is not point in even attempting to live the Christian life, because you're gonna go where you're gonna go. There'd be no point in learning to love God or your neighbor. No, it's a heresy.

When I come to a T-junction I can believe that God knows already which way I'll go but that he also knows that I'll choose to go that way freely.

I think I read in Zephaniah or Romans I cant remember now where the bible did state we are predestined.

taku60 said:

I think I read in Zephaniah or Romans I cant remember now where the bible did state we are predestined.

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I think you're looking for Ephesians 1:4 -

Before the creation of the world, he chose us through Christ to be holy and perfect in his presence.

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God knows where we will end up but He does not plan where we will end up. It is up to us where we will end up even though God already knows where we will end up. It is up to you if you choose to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

MarkSB said:

I think you're looking for Ephesians 1:4 -

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Im not sure but I was just thinking I have to be careful because I have a study bible that has "plainer english" in the bottom for the scripture above and sometimes I remember the plainer english rather than the actual scripture. I wish I were at a point where I could just recall things in the bible with the snap of my fingers, as an engineer rote memorization of scriputre is pretty fruitless but knowing where to find is immediatly is invaluable but im not to that point with the bible yet although I should be.

Kite said:

I was wondering if God already has a plan...Woa your off to a good start and knows if we'll enter Heaven or descend into Death

If we were born withOUT free will, then why are we already determined where we'll go?
In Scripture God tells us..Your ways are not my ways

Since God is outside of time, he can see an individual's life until his/her death. He already knows what choices we'll make, right? But how can he already know where to put us when we have free will to choose whatever path we take?

I'm confused...@_@

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No need to be confused, you DO NOT have free will, you may have been taught that you have...but you DO NOT have Free Will.

You had no say about being here in the first place...got the picture yet ?

Awesome God said:

God knows where we will end up but He does not plan where we will end up. It is up to us where we will end up even though God already knows where we will end up. It is up to you if you choose to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

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God knows where we will end up AND He does plan where we will end up. It is NOT up to us where we will end up God already knows where we will end up. It is part of Gods plan that you choose to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

Just needed to set you straight on the Sovereign Power and Will of God

I think Ezekiel 16 I think it was is a Good read here.....Sodom And Gomorah restored to their former state and given to Jerusalem as daughters.

To shame all of Israel into silence !

heavensprings said:

Be careful not to speak about the other alternative called Christian Universalism in here... tis not allowed.

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God was the first Universalist....he created it.

No, whether someone goes to Heaven or Hell or some purgatory-like place is up that person. God does not choose where we will go without our own choice in the matter. He only chooses where we will go after we have died and made that decision for ourselves.

Yes, I believe we are. Romans 8:29-30 Talks about predestination. God is omniscient and knew everything about us before we were born. He knows the fate of every person. Also, God is in control of the world. He is the one who saves a person, not whoever told him how to be saved.

However, we also have free will. God also knows our free will and what we'll choose. Also, Romans 9:15 says: "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." God has predestined everyone and knows who will choose him, and God knows everything about our free will and what we will choose. When God decided who would be saved, the choice to recieve the gift of salvation was placed somewhere in their free will.