Are there different "levels" of sin?

R3quiem · Jul 15, 2007

Yes, I think there are levels of sin, but they are all sins and we are all guilty.

As someone else mentioned, blaspheming the Holy Spirit is probably the worst sin, as Jesus says it is unforgivable. I also believe in mortal and venial sins, but I don't think there is a clear-cut line between them. Murder is clear worse than say, telling a white lie, even though both are bad in the eyes of God.

As for what you said about homosexuals, I completely agree. While I believe homosexuality is sinful because the Bible says so, I also realize that I am sinful, as well as everyone else, so I have no right to judge them.

CantThinkofaUserName · Jul 15, 2007

Key said:
...this means that we strive to overcome it...

Yea', but honestly, how many Christians can say that they strive to overcome sin? Most of the ones I know know that what they are doing is a sin - they feel bad for a minute or two and then completely forget about what they did (literally) 4 minutes later.

Key said:
God also demands that we "turn from our sin"

Most people who pass judgement pass it basedon the fact the the individual is gay - their judgement, IMO, has absolutely nothing to do with who that particular gay male or female is - and whether or not they think it's right or wrong to be gay. When people judge a homosexual, they usually haven't any personal information about them other than the fact that they're "gay". How do they know that he or she isn't going through the same thing a Christian is going through?

For instance:

- Christian: Watches pornographic films. And lies when he has to. Knows it's wrong, but can't stop. = Sinner, no?

- Homosexual individual: Gay male. For the sake of argument, we'll assume he's a luke-warm Christian. Deep down he knows it's wrong to be gay, but he can't get over it. If you were to pass this man in the street, not knowing who he is as a person, how he thinks or feels, would you look at him as someone who is "morally less" of an individual than you are? And if so, do you think that that would sit well with God? God being the purest form of love, do you think he would applaud you for such behavior?

If someone sins and does not care, and you know this as being a fact and not an assumption, then sure - I completely agree with you. They'd be one step behind any Christian sinner. Because they're not only sinners (which is - 1 in Gods eyes) but they also don't care (which is - 2). Now, if one day, they decided that they did care, they would be on the same exact path as ANY Christian, IMO: - 1 in Gods eyes. Basically, becoming a sinner who is in need of Gods assistance - or possibly the assistance of Gods helpers? That is, if being "gay" isn't a sin that is greater than all other sins. Would you agree?

CantThinkofaUserName · Jul 15, 2007

heron said:
...people tend to weight this as a worse sin....

Yea', that's what I'm saying. It's just weird with their: "Oh, noooooo, he's gay - stone him/her." Two seconds later they break 9 of ten commandments within an hours time. Doesn't make any sense.

CantThinkofaUserName · Jul 15, 2007

R3quiem said:
As someone else mentioned, blaspheming the Holy Spirit is probably the worst sin...

Yea', so what's the deal with that? Years ago, I thought that it meant to literally curse the Holy Spirit - but that just seemed WAY out there. It makes much more sense, as many have said, that by rejecting the Holy Spirit, you are then rejecting communication with God - thus a sin that cannot be forgiven because it is YOU that has to choose to accept the Holy Spirit.........or something along those lines. What are your thoughts on this?

ebia · Jul 16, 2007

CantThinkofaUserName said:
Yea', so what's the deal with that? Years ago, I thought that it meant to literally curse the Holy Spirit - but that just seemed WAY out there. It makes much more sense, as many have said, that by rejecting the Holy Spirit, you are then rejecting communication with God - thus a sin that cannot be forgiven because it is YOU that has to choose to accept the Holy Spirit.........or something along those lines. What are your thoughts on this?

Your second option is getting closer. If someone completely rejects the Holy Spirit they are rejecting the very means of forgiveness. It's not that "blaspheming the holy ghost is very, very naughty and God can't bring himself to let you off the hook", it's that one literally cannot be forgiven if one rejects the mean of forgiveness. As Tom Wright says, if someone is worried about committing this sin, then they can be confident that they aren't.

Aces High · Jul 16, 2007

CantThinkofaUserName said:
I'm pretty sure that I read a quote in the bible that gives us permission to "judge" others. I think the reason behind that is that, it allows Christians to form an opinion on anothers character to discern whether or not he is a "brother" in Christ - so that if he isn't, you can preach the gospel to him in hopes that he strays from his "evil" ways - don't remember the exact location in the bible, but I'm pretty sure it's in there, somewhere. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The above example, however, is not the case with the majority of "Christians" I've spoken with and overheard. I mean it's simply NOT the reason these "Christians" say, do and think the way they do. They're not there to teach - I'd bet (2) months pay that the thought of preaching the gospel doesn't even cross their minds when confronted by a homosexual male or female.

It'd be bad enough if they just judged the person, but I've overheard them many times stating that homosexuals are "going to hell". It's like, just send Jesus the memo while you're at it, man - you know, so he doesn't have to come back a SECOND TIME to do what you've already done in HIS BEHALF.

Yea', I'm trying to - it's not as easy as I thought it would be.

This is right, I think it makes sense to first find out what it means to "judge" others, these definitions are important and are not always what they seem because they are translated from ancient languages to a similar but not always exact word in English.

But you can form an opinion about them, we do it anyways, it's in our nature to make a judgment, however you can say to yourself no, I do not know ultimately what will happen to him/her and they deserve the same respect as anyone else does.

heron · Jul 16, 2007

When people judge a homosexual, they usually haven't any personal information about them other than the fact that they're "gay". How do they know that he or she isn't going through the same thing a Christian is going through?

Well, this is what I think is odd. I really would prefer not to know about everyone's sex life, or categorize someone by areas of their lives I think should be private.

This slanted information is not just generated by Christians -- many homosexuals tend to label themselves as part of a community, almost like their preference puts them into a club or religion.... giving them an obligation to vote a certain way or march in a parade. I wonder how many gay people feel pressured by peers to sign petitions and get involved in public statements.

That is when it becomes the warped contest between groups. I would prefer not to see people as part of a coagulated mass, because it's our individual stances that keep the social machine operating in a healthy balance.

Recently an agnostic in a work environment said to me about another worker, "Well, you know he's gay, right?" It had nothing to do with nothing. I have no idea why this information was important for me to know, or what context it had in the discussion. People just like to label.

Emmy · Jul 16, 2007

Dear CantThinkofaUserName. Jesus gave us 2 Commandments, they contain all 10 Commandments which God gave us. 1) Love God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind. ( That is straight forward, and means what it says.) 2) Love each other as you love yourselves. ( meaning: never do, or say anything to anybody, which you would not have said, or done to you or your dear ones.) Everything which does not agree with this, is sin. God is Love, He is Compassion and Forgiveness, and when Jesus lived among us, He showed us God, as God really is. Jesus also told us to become perfect, as God is perfect. That is not easy, CantThinkofaName, but Jesus has promised us, and He has kept His promise to thousands of Christian men and women. We know what God wants of us, and we have many years to learn and become better and better. As we really try and follow the Lord`s leadings, we will find that it becomes easier and easier, we will have the Lord`s Love, Joy and Peace, and real and selfless Love, will beget Love, people will notice, they will want to be your friends, and we will find life much more enjoyable. Yet until we really try to exchange our selfish ways into selfless ones, we will never really know. I say this humbly and lovingly, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.

CantThinkofaUserName · Jul 16, 2007

heron said:
Well, this is what I think is odd. I really would prefer not to know about everyone's sex life, or categorize someone by areas of their lives I think should be private.

You don't have to know them, just try not to judge them - that is the the topic at hand, not becoming buddy-buddy with the gay community. lol And by "judge them" I don't necessarily mean to form an opinion of them, but more so not to be convicted in your heart that they're "going to hell", you know?

heron said:
This slanted information is not just generated by Christians -- many homosexuals tend to label themselves as part of a community, almost like their preference puts them into a club or religion.... giving them an obligation to vote a certain way or march in a parade. I wonder how many gay people feel pressured by peers to sign petitions and get involved in public statements.

Listen, I know I'm probably coming off sounding like an advocate of the gays over here or something, but I'm not. I'm just using my heart and factual information to decipher whether it's ok to judge someone or not - that's all.

There is a specific quote in the bible that tells Christians not to be around those who make fun of others - it probably isn't written as I wrote it, but pretty close, I'm sure. Yet still, how many times do we feel obligated to not only stay when such situations arise (when the bible clearly tells us not to) but also wind up adding our own little quips? Point being: sin is sin. If being gay isn't the gravest sin, then by you not looking the same at your son or brother or friend for lying or cheating on his wife or whatever, then I'd feel you (or anyone else for that matter) may wind up with a judgmental heart if you looked differently at a gay male or female if you knew that they were in the same position as a Christian: wanting to change, but not being able to. And if you don't know for sure (how hard this would be), just reserve your judgement. You don't have to bring him or her into your home for tea, but wouldn't it the right thing to do to not think of them as "going to hell" while we shouldn't be so sure of where we're going to wind up? I really hope my point is coming across well.

heron said:
Recently an agnostic in a work environment said to me about another worker, "Well, you know he's gay, right?" It had nothing to do with nothing.

Well, there you go. It doesn't have anything to do with anything - so just let it go. It's like someone coming up to me and telling me, "Hey, this guy is a Christian". I'll probably nod my head, say "Hi" and be on my merry little way. Plus, some people are just weird like that - he may have known your stance on homsexuals and felt like he, I don't know, had to tell you or something - but that's just a guess.

heron said:
I would prefer not to see people as part of a coagulated mass...

Neither would I.

It's just so, IMO, unhealthy to judge someone. I just personally think that we should simply be careful - that's all I'm saying. Out of a "coagulated mass" of 1 million people, it may be that one person that we judge that God may or may not judge us as we did him or her - and at the same degree? So I say nothing more than to be careful.

CantThinkofaUserName · Jul 16, 2007

Emmy said:
Dear CantThinkofaUserName. Jesus gave us 2 Commandments, they contain all 10 Commandments which God gave us. 1) Love God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind. ( That is straight forward, and means what it says.) 2) Love each other as you love yourselves. ( meaning: never do, or say anything to anybody, which you would not have said, or done to you or your dear ones.) Everything which does not agree with this, is sin. God is Love, He is Compassion and Forgiveness, and when Jesus lived among us, He showed us God, as God really is. Jesus also told us to become perfect, as God is perfect. That is not easy, CantThinkofaName, but Jesus has promised us, and He has kept His promise to thousands of Christian men and women. We know what God wants of us, and we have many years to learn and become better and better. As we really try and follow the Lord`s leadings, we will find that it becomes easier and easier, we will have the Lord`s Love, Joy and Peace, and real and selfless Love, will beget Love, people will notice, they will want to be your friends, and we will find life much more enjoyable. Yet until we really try to exchange our selfish ways into selfless ones, we will never really know. I say this humbly and lovingly, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.

Thanks, Emmy.

heron · Jul 16, 2007

Well, there you go. It doesn't have anything to do with anything - so just let it go.

I have a feeling that you are still lumping all Christians into the category of being gay-bashers. You do know that we don't all act this way, don't you? Each person has their own personal opinion, and we are all going to come across differently. Being rude is not a Christian issue-- it's a choice that some individuals have made.

You don't have to bring him or her into your home for tea, but wouldn't it the right thing to do to not think of them as "going to hell" while we're we shouldn't be so sure of ourselves? I really hope my point is coming across well.

I have had tea, coffee, and computer troubleshooting in my home... plenty of lunches outside my home.... and thousands of interactions where the topic has not come up, let alone judgment.

I see your point, I support your point. I was merely trying to explain differences between personal opinions and religious convictions.

CantThinkofaUserName · Jul 16, 2007

heron said:
I have a feeling that you are still lumping all Christians into the category of being gay-bashers.

Now way, man - that's not at all how I feel and (at the risk of maybe having to put my foot in my mouth if I did), I'll say that I don't think I've even implied it. If I am coming off that way, tho', I'm sorry - because truthfully, I would never "lump" a group of individuals into the same category ever, regardless even of how strong a stereotype may be.

heron said:
You do know that we don't all act this way, don't you?

Yes, of course.

heron said:
I see your point, I support your point. I was merely trying to explain differences between personal opinions and religious convictions.

Thank you for that, I really appreciate your words and your help. Please know that I'm a little ruff around the edges with my words at times, so if I come off a bit strong with my bold this and italicized that, I'm just taking that extra step to ensure that my point is coming across - whether you agree to it or not is completely fine, just as long as my point is fully understood.

Again, thanks!

heron · Jul 16, 2007

whether you agree to it or not is completely fine, just as long as my point is fully understood.

Well, yes... sadly it reached about ten people so far. I think you'll have to continue saying it for a larger group of people to grasp how they come across.

CantThinkofaUserName · Jul 16, 2007

heron said:
Well, yes... sadly it reached about ten people so far. I think you'll have to continue saying it for a larger group of people to grasp how they come across.

Well, I'm not necessarily trying to preach my point (or anything else for that matter) to anyone, really - and I have no hidden agenda. I was simply asking a question and then responding to the those that responded to me.

Be it a conversation with a single individual, the "10" you mention, or even a group of 500 - if I don't relay my point well enough, I've noticed that the discussion is likely to wind up going in circles.

I personally have a very hard time making a concrete decision about certain things if I am not 100% positive that I have all of the information needed to make such a decision. Knowing fully that every piece of information I possess is factual. I figured, if so many Christians that I've noticed look down on gay men and woman the way they do, that there just may be a verse (or two) in the bible that indicates homosexuality as having a severity over other types of sins. So, I came to the board and asked. And I'm pretty confident that I've gotten my answer. Thanks to you and everyone else.

heron · Jul 16, 2007

I figured, if so many Christians that I've noticed look down on gay men and woman the way they do, that there just may be a verse (or two) in the bible that indicates homosexuality as having a severity over other types of sins. So, I came to the board and asked. And I'm pretty confident that I've gotten my answer.

Hmm... factual.

Okay. I think that whenever people outside of Christianity defend something that Christians consider a sin, it stands out more.

For instance, most of the public notices that drinking causes health and legal problems, but only a small percentage of people will defend a lifestyle of drinking. There is rarely an all-or-nothing decision involved (even with most Christians).

An abortion might be a different matter, since it's all-or-nothing. A given Christian (not all) might consider it a murder, while another person defends rights... another administers the procedure... another gets an abortion in a panic -- each having a different level of commitment to it.

In a case like this, it's not just about a fact of sin vs. no sin, but standing behind a choice.

Then the issue of people making an individual choice grows into tough public decisions, like ordaining religious leaders and teaching about it in the elementary classroom. I suspect that Christians who appear angry feel that they have been put in a position of making more uncomfortable decisions than they want to. Then they take it out on individuals. It's not right... I am just trying to present a possible explanation for why it happens.

Key · Jul 16, 2007

CantThinkofaUserName said:
Yea', but honestly, how many Christians can say that they strive to overcome sin? Most of the ones I know know that what they are doing is a sin - they feel bad for a minute or two and then completely forget about what they did (literally) 4 minutes later.

First, striving to overcome sin, means you do not embrace the things you do that are sin, as a means to identify yourself.

IE: a Christian would not (well should not) say "I am a drunkard, that is what I am, that is what I shall be"..

The idea is, we know we have faults, dang I have more then I care to count, but that does not mean I do not try to overcome, or at the very least, try to limit the effect of my faults in the environment around me.

Most people who pass judgement pass it basedon the fact the the individual is gay -

That is sad, but then again, what is even sadder is that some people identify themselves as "gay" as if it is "what they are" as opposed to simply who they are attracted to. I do not go around and label myself "straight" as if it defines me. However, sadly, it seems (and seems is the key word here) that homosexuals as a group.. do so.

This might be where the "judgment" is coming from, and it is focused on the people that define themselves by their sin.

Or some Christian groups have some major issues to work out, and need to take a chill pill.

their judgement, IMO, has absolutely nothing to do with who that particular gay male or female is - and whether or not they think it's right or wrong to be gay.

Maybe, the focus seems to be on the more flamboyant, and feminine gays then the butch bears, if you know what I mean.

Again however, ones sexual orientation should not define them, and to define yourself by your orientation, you are asking for people to pay attention to that, either good or bad.

When people judge a homosexual, they usually haven't any personal information about them other than the fact that they're "gay". How do they know that he or she isn't going through the same thing a Christian is going through?

Huh?

For instance:

- Christian: Watches pornographic films. And lies when he has to. Knows it's wrong, but can't stop. = Sinner, no?

Oh yah, that is a sinner. Umm.. ok.. well I was gonna say something like "watching porn is not a sin" but........ that would open a whole can of worms I do not want to open. so lets just go with this.. yes it is all sin...

- Homosexual individual: Gay male. For the sake of argument, we'll assume he's a luke-warm Christian. Deep down he knows it's wrong to be gay, but he can't get over it. If you were to pass this man in the street, not knowing who he is as a person, how he thinks or feels, would you look at him as someone who is "morally less" of an individual than you are? And if so, do you think that that would sit well with God? God being the purest form of love, do you think he would applaud you for such behavior?

Well I can say (but wouldn't) that being gay is wrong or that it is a sin, but then again, I believe people don't practice their 5th amendment rights enough.. yes.. that is true.. our 5th amendment.. says.. You can shut up.

And I really wish.. more people would do so...

Gosh.. you want to hear people who can't shut up, stand on the street with some overweight person having a smoke, it's like everyone has this tidbit to say.. I mean really.. "OH WOW.. I did not know that being fat was bad for me.. WOW.. You saved me.. I'll go home right now and starve myself to skin and bones all because you just had to say such bul.... (I think I am gonna stop now)...

Anyway.. I think you get the point...

So it's not just gay people, it's anyone on the crap list, smokers, obese people, the list is quite long, and it seems that Christians in General have witch hunts even today, it's just changed form who the "Witch" is.

So now it is gay people are added to the list of who is a "witch".. same mentality if you ask me.

If someone sins and does not care, and you know this as being a fact and not an assumption, then sure - I completely agree with you. They'd be one step behind any Christian sinner. Because they're not only sinners (which is - 1 in Gods eyes) but they also don't care (which is - 2). Now, if one day, they decided that they did care, they would be on the same exact path as ANY Christian, IMO: - 1 in Gods eyes. Basically, becoming a sinner who is in need of Gods assistance - or possibly the assistance of Gods helpers? That is, if being "gay" isn't a sin that is greater than all other sins. Would you agree?

Huh?

I am confused by this.

Look, if a person is Gay, like say for example, I am straight, that does not mean that have to have sex. Just because I am attracted to woman does not mean I have to have sex with anyone one of them that is willing to do me.. (and it's funny, after getting married, it seems there are more of them willing... go figure...)

Also I am married, well that means I can have sex right.. but, only with ONE person, for the rest of my life.. think about that for a moment.

Now don't get me wrong.. I want to have sex with every hot sweet piece of .. that I see, but I don't act upon that urge, that is the difference.

Another thing, it is not "Being Gay" that is the problem.. it is engaging in Homosexual sex that is the issue..

But.. again.. I'll give you,.. many Christians miss this as well.. welcome to the wonderful world of a witch hunt.

heron said:
Recently an agnostic in a work environment said to me about another worker, "Well, you know he's gay, right?" It had nothing to do with nothing. I have no idea why this information was important for me to know, or what context it had in the discussion. People just like to label.

CantThinkofaUserName said:
Well, there you go. It doesn't have anything to do with anything - so just let it go. It's like someone coming up to me and telling me, "Hey, this guy is a Christian". I'll probably nod my head, say "Hi" and be on my merry little way. Plus, some people are just weird like that - he may have known your stance on homsexuals and felt like he, I don't know, had to tell you or something - but that's just a guess.

I think you hit the nail on the head, the coworker said something to stir up issues, because they knew that heron was a Christian, and wanted to see the reaction, maybe some sparks fly, there will be trouble makers in every "group"..

I would like say that Christians are something of a moral high ground... but.. sadly, after all is said and done.. they are just humans.. like everyone else.. prone to the same weakness and biased and issues as everyone else..

And never more so then the ones that have gotten their pants in a knot and are looking for a good crusade or witch hunt...

You just have to look at the good..

Homosexuals are people, and they have all the same faulting and short comings as everyone else, I am sure they do the same things to other groups of people that are done to them.

Humans.. yah.. they are corrupt.. so.... what does that means... well... look out the window.. see that junk out there, all the problems, and all the hate...

that is corruption...

Following Christ is hard...

Being a "Christian" is easy...

God Bless

Key.

CantThinkofaUserName · Jul 17, 2007

Key said:
First, striving to overcome sin, means you do not embrace the things you do that are sin, as a means to identify yourself.

Again, to those that embrace such a lifestyle - yes, they are one step behind any sinner that knows what he or she is doing is wrong. I'll explain what I mean below.

Key said:
IE: a Christian would not (well should not) say "I am a drunkard, that is what I am, that is what I shall be"..

I agree. Not all gay humans do this, tho' - that is what I've been saying. The ones that do and also the ones that don't get judged the same way.

Key said:
The idea is, we know we have faults, dang I have more then I care to count, but that does not mean I do not try to overcome, or at the very least, try to limit the effect of my faults in the environment around me.

The underlying point I'm trying to convey is that we can't assume that every gay individual is Mr. "Hey, look at me, I'm gay and proud". And if that was the case, then yea', I agree, chances are they're probably not trying to overcome being "gay" - and therefore need to take that step forward and realize that what they're doing is biblically forbidden so that they'll be able to begin repentance.

But even if they are that way, wouldn't Jesus try to help them? Reminds me of that WWJD braclet? Would Jesus look at them as a friend (or brother) who is sinning? Or a sinner who is going to hell? Wouldn't Jesus at least TRY to pull the veil from over their head with a PURE heart and try to guide them towards what's right? I think he would.

Key said:
Huh?

Gay male = Trying to overcome homosexuality because he knows it's biblically forbidden. Comparable to: Christian male trying to overcome sexual activity with random women because he knows that, according to the bible, it's wrong. They're both in the same boat - but a person judging the gay male wouldn't know that right off the bat and would pass judgement regardless.

Key said:
Oh yah, that is a sinner. Umm.. ok.. well I was gonna say something like "watching porn is not a sin" but........ that would open a whole can of worms I do not want to open. so lets just go with this.. yes it is all sin...

Oh, c'mon, man - don't get techincal on me here - or is that defense mode that kicked in? lol J/P

You know dang tootin' that when 99.9% of guys watch porn they're lusting beyond human comprehension - and not thinking about anything else but that. Besides, I'm sure you know that I was simply trying to find an example of a person who is sinning.

Key said:
Well I can say (but wouldn't) that being gay is wrong or that it is a sin

Yes, you can - of course you can. But a gay male can also call you out on some of the things you mention in this quote:

"The idea is, we know we have faults, dang I have more then I care to count"

You sin, as well. So, if being gay (and not accepting it as being "ok") is NOT a greater sin than, say for instance, lusting, lying, or thinking about cheating on your significant other (adultery), than yea', you really should keep your thoughts to yourself - because neither you or me are any better than the gay male that I just described.

Key said:
but then again, I believe people don't practice their 5th amendment rights enough.. yes.. that is true.. our 5th amendment.. says.. You can shut up.

And I really wish.. more people would do so...

If there was any way for people to literally see and hear themselves through the eyes of the world, and somehow see how they affect people with their words and actions, I really believe that you're wish would have great chance of becoming a reality. To constantly remember to put ourselves in others shoes - that is something to live a persons life by, I'd say.

Key said:
Huh?

I am confused by this.

It's just like the "unforgivable sin" - they'd have to move one step forward and accept that what they are doing is a sin to be aligned with every other sinner who has already accepted that what they are doing is a sin. If not, they fall one step short.

Here's an example:

Perfection = 0
Sinning = - (negative) 1
A sinner that doesn't accept that he is a sinner = - (negative) 2

0 - 2 = - 2

Not only does he sin, but he doesn't accept that he's a sinner. He'd first have to accept that he is a sinner, and only THEN would he be able to work on not sinning - he has to realize it first - something Christians are already aware of. Kind of like having an inside scoop in the Stock Market, if you don't have that "inside scoop", you're one step behind the man that does.

Anyway, after accepting that being gay is biblically sinful, that would then leave him in the same situation as most Christians: wanting to absolve themselves from sin, and possibly having a not-so-easy time doing so. So it's kind of like they're 2 steps behind where God wants them to be. Get it? That's why I say to simply reserve your judgements - because you never really know another persons heart. I mean, saying that someone is "going to hell" is NOT OUR JOB - regardless of who does what, IMHO. Every man and women can do as they wish, I'll steer clear of that path, for sure.

Key said:
Another thing, it is not "Being Gay" that is the problem.. it is engaging in Homosexual sex that is the issue..

Yes, I think someone else mentioned that in this thread, as well. How does that work, tho'? I know that if you even think about another woman sexualy, while married, you've already committed adultery in your heart. Can't the same concept be applied to homosexuality?

And even if it can't, what's your point? I know I'm kicking a dead horse here, but people don't think about lusting, they do it. They lie, cheat, AND steal and yet find some miraculous way to look down upon others. These may be extreme examples, but I believe that even those who don't do any of the things I've mentioned sin DAILY in ways that they may or may not be aware of.

Key said:
Following Christ is hard...

Being a "Christian" is easy...

Perfect!!! That pretty much sums it it up right there.

It's hilarious (by hilarious I usually mean "amazing") how many who don't even consider themselves Christians are the ones following most of the teachings of Christ without even knowing it. While those who do consider themselves "devout" followers of "The Words of Christ" are the ones who are the furthest from it. Weird!

CantThinkofaUserName · Jul 17, 2007

heron said:
In a case like this, it's not just about a fact of sin vs. no sin, but standing behind a choice.

Wouldn't you agree that it's a biblical fact that homosexuality is a sin comparable to all other sins and not one which is greater? That's what I meant by "want factual" information. That is the reason I started this thread.

I just woke up, so forgive me I bypassed your point somehow. lol

Key · Jul 17, 2007

CantThinkofaUserName said:
I agree. Not all gay humans do this, tho' - that is what I've been saying. The ones that do and also the ones that don't get judged the same way.

Bugger on that one really.. people are sheep, and will do what they are told to do , think what they are told to think, and hate who they are told to hate.

Really, as I said.. it's a witch hunt, welcome to the fold...

Which means.. what?

Well that there is no logic applied to it... some person who was great with words decided that it's time to attack the Homosexuals.. and so it was.

The underlying point I'm trying to convey is that we can't assume that every gay individual is Mr. "Hey, look at me, I'm gay and proud". And if that was the case, then yea', I agree, chances are they're probably not trying to overcome being "gay" - and therefore need to take that step forward and realize that what they're doing is biblically forbidden so that they'll be able to begin repentance.

I am with this, sadly, the people that say "Hey Look at me.. I am Gay and you need to love me for it" really.. do kinda set the stage for everyone else, because they are what the "world" sees, and as such, that is what is applied.

Christians have the same issues.

Just as people say Christians are hate mongers, and all this other stuff, it's life, and that is just the way it is, it is what people are going to do.

But even if they are that way, wouldn't Jesus try to help them? Reminds me of that WWJD braclet? Would Jesus look at them as a friend (or brother) who is sinning? Or a sinner who is going to hell? Wouldn't Jesus at least TRY to pull the veil from over their head with a PURE heart and try to guide them towards what's right? I think he would.

Better to sit at a table with sinners, who know they are sinners, then to sit at a table with someone that says they are holy but is a sinner.

(paraphrased from the writings of Paul)

Gay male = Trying to overcome homosexuality because he knows it's biblically forbidden. Comparable to: Christian male trying to overcome sexual activity with random women because he knows that, according to the bible, it's wrong. They're both in the same boat - but a person judging the gay male wouldn't know that right off the bat and would pass judgement regardless.

True that.. but then again, they would not know about the straight guy either as they called him sexually immoral as well.

But I will give you, they would hold the Homosexual in some kind of lower standard then the straight guy. But that is a product of the human condition and cultural influence.. ya know.

Oh, c'mon, man - don't get techincal on me here - or is that defense mode that kicked in? lol J/P

You know dang tootin' that when 99.9% of guys watch porn they're lusting beyond human comprehension - and not thinking about anything else but that. Besides, I'm sure you know that I was simply trying to find an example of a person who is sinning.

Porn is arousal, not lust. Lust has nothing to do with sex, but has to do with overwhelming desire. IE: A Lust for Money.

But again.. that is a can of worms... ahhh.. I better not open...

But Lust.. is a desire, a consuming desire, a desire that overtakes you.

A Lust for Woman, is not simply the desire to have sex with them, but to own or possess them, to "HAVE" them.. know what I mean.

You sin, as well. So, if being gay (and not accepting it as being "ok") is NOT a greater sin than, say for instance, lusting, lying, or thinking about cheating on your significant other (adultery), than yea', you really should keep your thoughts to yourself - because neither you or me are any better than the gay male that I just described.

We all sin... but, I would call a murder on it, as I would call a thief, not because I think I am better, but because their sin would have more of a social impact then say... my eating too much at each and every meal.

There are culturally set levels to "crimes" that are also sins, that are issues.

IE: Stealing, Murder, Etc...

These crimes, are not only sin, but also very destructive to the culture as a whole.

Being Gay... well.. lets see.. Yup.. right here under "Other sins" in Leviticus.

If there was any way for people to literally see and hear themselves through the eyes of the world, and somehow see how they affect people with their words and actions, I really believe that you're wish would have great chance of becoming a reality. To constantly remember to put ourselves in others shoes - that is something to live a persons life by, I'd say.

yup...

I mean, saying that someone is "going to hell" is NOT OUR JOB - regardless of who does what, IMHO.

You got that right, it's not our judgment.

However, we are to judge people by their fruits, not condemn because it sounds like a fun thing to do.

Yes, I think someone else mentioned that in this thread, as well. How does that work, tho'? I know that if you even think about another woman sexualy, while married, you've already committed adultery in your heart. Can't the same concept be applied to homosexuality?

No, it does not work like that.. if you are willing to have sex with that woman dispite the fact that you are married, that is when it is adultry.

IE: I can look at a girl and think "Wow she has a nice rack ! Dang those are BIG !".... and no sin is committed...

But..

If I think "Oh man I so want to do her, I mean, I wish I wasn't married to this hag, because I so want to have sex with her, it is driving me nuts, maybe if I can get my wife out of the house for a while, then I can call her over and we can have sex while my wife is at work......."

Then sin has been committed...

And even if it can't, what's your point? I know I'm kicking a dead horse here, but people don't think about lusting, they do it. They lie, cheat, AND steal and yet find some miraculous way to look down upon others. These may be extreme examples, but I believe that even those who don't do any of the things I've mentioned sin DAILY in ways that they may or may not be aware of.

Meh... people.. what can you do....

Hope this helps you some.

God Bless

Key

Are there different "levels" of sin?

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