Are some people just not meant to be saved?

Scottish Knight · Jul 1, 2010

That's my understanding of what the Bible and moderate calvinism teaches. The Kirk maintains historic calvinism, found in the Westminster confession (although I myself am reformed baptist).

Tamara224 · Jul 1, 2010

No one can be saved unless God first calls him/her:

John 6
35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
***
43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
***
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

No one seeks God on his/her own but only in response to God's call.

God "foreknew" who would and who would not respond favorably to His call, and based on that foreknowledge, He chose whom He would call:

Romans 8
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1
11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Rest assured that if your desire is to be saved, then you will be saved. You wouldn't have that desire if God hadn't called you and enabled you. Those who are not chosen do not want to be.

The faith that you have - that is, believing in Jesus Christ and putting your trust in Him for salvation - is a gift given to you by God:

Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

And God doesn't take back gifts He has given: "for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable." (Romans 11:29).

"...being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." (Philippians 1:6)

jameseb · Jul 1, 2010

LoveJC9 said:
Mat 22:14For manyarecalled, but few are chosen."

Is it possible that it is just an accident that some are in church? That maybe they are not meant to be saved and that is why they have the struggles that they have in their life?

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Publican:

To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

~Luke 18:9-14

LoveJC9 · Jul 1, 2010

jameseb said:
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Publican:

To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other menrobbers, evildoers, adulterersor even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

~Luke 18:9-14

This is awesome. Thank you!

Avatar · Jul 1, 2010

LoveJC9 said:
This is awesome. Thank you!

Yeah, well, I'm a thousand times humbler than you!

mustang333 · Jul 1, 2010

Last week my pastor touched the point that God's sovereignty and our free will coexist. For example, he mentioned that God had hardened the heart of Pharaoh (in Exodus), but later in the book it said that Pharaoh had hardened his own heart. So he concluded that it was both free will and God's sovereignty at the same time.

Also, yes I don't believe anybody would be believers unless at a time in their lives we heard the gospel and in God's sovereignty our hearts were open to believe. At the same time though we followed the invitation with our own free will.

I still feel like there is a lot missing here (that I haven't learned yet) but I believe most of this is fairly reasonable and in line with my understandings of scripture

leothelioness · Jul 1, 2010

I think it's natural for people to wonder if they are saved. I've had those thoughts at times. However, I know that those thoughts are because of Satan. Of course he's going to make you question your salvation. That's how he gets you.

You just have to tune him out and learn to listen to God instead.

trentlogain2 · Jul 1, 2010

how many calvinists does it take to screw in a light bulb?

it depends on how many are needed to get out all of the unbelievers from the room. for only the elect are given the Light.
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LoveJC9 · Jul 1, 2010

leothelioness said:
I think it's natural for people to wonder if they are saved. I've had those thoughts at times. However, I know that those thoughts are because of Satan. Of course he's going to make you question your salvation. That's how he gets you.

You just have to tune him out and learn to listen to God instead.

My pastor always says that he never tried to convince you that you weren't saved when you weren't now did he?

trentlogain2 · Jul 1, 2010

a catholic priest and a presbyterian minister used to have friendly matches of tennis. one day after a game the two started discussing their various problems in their respective parishes while in the showers. suddenly a fire broke out. naked, they ran out into the street. the presbyterian covered up his privates while the catholic priest put his hands over his face. the presbyterian asked the priest, 'what are you convering your face?" the priest replied, "because everybody will recognize my face"!

GoodNewsJim · Jul 1, 2010

I don't think its for people to even guess who's going to Heaven and who's going to Hell. We're supposed to love and forgive everyone. Judge not lest you be judged. And remember Jesus is the judge who did not come to condemn mankind.

LoveJC9 · Jul 1, 2010

I am not judging anyone at all by my question. I am actually questioning my own salvation.

He.Loves.You · Jul 1, 2010

I think most people will doubt their own salvation at one point or another. But doing so is doubting the power of God. It's like saying to Him, "I want to be saved, but I am so bad and stuff; I really just don't think you will save me."
That's why you have to become like a little child, and just trust in Him. Say, "I don't see how it can work out, how I can be saved, but I trust you."
If you have the desire to be saved, then trust is the key. You have to believe that Jesus is trustworthy ... worthy of your trust.

leothelioness · Jul 1, 2010

LoveJC9 said:
My pastor always says that he never tried to convince you that you weren't saved when you weren't now did he?

Right. Satan is going to try his hardest to take you out of God's hands because he can't stand it when there's one for the other team, so to speak. Just like when Satan challenged God that he could make Job doubt and curse God's name. God of course knew Job's heart and knew that he would never curse the Lord.

Take this as a learning experience, as it was for Job. I always find comfort in Job's story when I'm struggling.

jameseb · Jul 2, 2010

LoveJC9 said:
This is awesome. Thank you!

Quite welcome.

JohnDB · Jul 2, 2010

Excellent question concerning this verse.

In the day and time that this was said...

There were three levels of education. (school wasn't compulsory)
Bethgashepher...(Beth-gas-hep-her) where each child was to memorize the entire Torah(first five books of the bible) from these five books they would learn math and history as well as the Law of Moses.

Next was the Bethmidrash. There the rest of the Tenakh (old testament) would be memorized and the students would discuss/debate the meaning of the Law.

Then if you were the best of the best of the students you would ask a rabbi if you could follow him. If the rabbi said, "Yes" your whole world consisted of learning how to become the rabbi you were following. You would go to extremes of learning how to snore like the rabbi if you didn't snore at all. All mannerisms and behaviors and patterns would be followed. Until one day the rabbi would turn to you and tell you, "Go make disciples" meaning that you were now a rabbi in your own right. (graduation)

This verse dovetails another verse of Jesus. "You didn't choose me I chose you".
Jesus is saying that He chose some of us to be leaders. (which is what the 12 Apostles were going to be) Not everyone is chosen to be a leader on this earth. Many many of us are chosen to be his followers.

Obviously you have been chosen to be a follower of Jesus. So you ain't an apostolic leader....big deal...you don't even like politics that much. But how can you not like Jesus?
Sure we fail at following him and doing everything the way we should...but we do try our best. And some days that best isn't as good as others...but the invitation still is ours. And HE loves us in spite of our many failures.

Are some people just not meant to be saved?

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