Apostates

coyoteBR · Jul 16, 2005

Canadian75 said:
What are the punishments (temporal and/or spiritual) for apostacy in your faith? I know Islam has the death penalty and eternal damnation for apostates and Catholicism used to have the death penalty (for those who lead someone to apostacy and apostates were tried in the inquisition) and Christianity, in general ,still has eternal damnation for apostates. I am an ex-Muslim and an ex-Catholic so either way I'm hell bound (IF Islam or Catholicism is entirely true). And the more I think about it the more I realize I cannot think of any other groups that would kill an apostate. As for the eternal damnation part, I figure Islam and Christianity are the only faiths that "damn" their apostates. I could be wrong.

What about your faith?

Christian Spiritism:
No earthly punishment or menaces at all. Means simply you choose another patch to God.
As for the afterlife? Pheh. I really believe God Does Not Care if you followed this or that denomination, but if you honored Him the way Jesus teached: "I was hungry and you gave Me food; I Was naked and you clothed Me; Was sick and you visited Me."

So, if you think God speaks louder to your heart and reason outside the spiritist doctrine, blessed ya.

Rosa Mystica · Jul 19, 2005

stillsmallvoice said:
Hi all!

A Jew who (God forbid!) adopts another faith, is still Jewish. However, until he/she repents & renounces the other faith that they have adopted, a number of disabilities are heaped on them. Such a person is to be shunned. If a man, he cannot be counted as part of the necessary quorom for group prayer; he may not be given any synagogue or community honor; he may not teach Judaism; act as a rabbi, mohel (ritual circumciser), or shokhet (kosher butcher). Under Jewish law, he is disinherited. If such a person dies unrepentant, I believe that he/she either may not be buried in a properly-consecrated Jewish cemetery or must be buried in a special section.

Judaism is a club that once admitted into (either by birth or orthodox conversion), you can never leave. A Jew who thinks that he/she can absolve him/herself of his/her covenental obligations by, say, adopting Christianity or Islam is sorely mistaken. In Ezekiel 20:32-33, God says:

One of my rabbis says that, the wood mentioned above refers to the Cross (i.e. Christianity), while the stone refers to the Kaaba (i.e. Islam). While the Jewish community can merely heap diabilities on apostates, it is God who will punish them.

I hope this doesn't offend anyone (God forbid!), because I know it's going to sound harsh, but...Not for nothing did Dante place not murderers, not rapists, but traitors in the lowest circle of Hell. A sane Jew who (God forbid!) knowingly, willingly, and under no compulsion whatsoever, abjures Judaism for another faith is a blackhearted rogue & a traitor who betrays his people and his God. I would pray that they repent but barring that I wish them ill and suffering. Why am I reacting with such vitriol? Our Sages say that, "All Israel is responsible one for the other." We Jews are a small people; we constitute one organic whole. When a Jew abjures his faith, it is like having a limb ripped off or an organ torn out. It is a raw wound that never heals & which hurts more than you can possibly imagine. We all suffer, we are all diminished thereby. Thus, to those who knowingly inflict this on us, I react as I have.

Be well!

ssv

What happens to a Jewish apostate in the afterlife, if I may ask?

Montalban · Jul 20, 2005

Rosa Mystica said:
What happens to a Jewish apostate in the afterlife, if I may ask?

I'd be interested to know this too.

stillsmallvoice · Jul 20, 2005

Hi all!

Jewish apostates will be judged according to their actions, much as we all will & be rewarded/punished/purified-purged accordingly. I imagine that if the "fury poured out" referred to in Ezekiel is not poured out in this world, then it will be in the next.

Howzat?

ssv

S Walch · Jul 20, 2005

What are you refering to in Ezekial?

I so need to read more of the old testiment books..

Montalban · Jul 20, 2005

stillsmallvoice said:
Hi all!

Jewish apostates will be judged according to their actions, much as we all will & be rewarded/punished/purified-purged accordingly. I imagine that if the "fury poured out" referred to in Ezekiel is not poured out in this world, then it will be in the next.

How are they punished? I'm not much versed in Judaism, but someone told me that Jews believe in Gehenna, which is a 'pit', rather than a burning hell.

arunma · Jul 20, 2005

S Walch said:
What are you refering to in Ezekial?

I so need to read more of the old testiment books..

Just keep in mind Walch: Christians and Jews have very different interpretations of the Old Testament. That difference is so pronounced that it often seems as if we're reading different books. We interpret the Old Testament through the lens of the apostles, whereas Jews view it by means of the rabbinic teachings.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Judaism isn't "Christianity minus Jesus."

stillsmallvoice · Jul 20, 2005

Hi all!

S Walch, I'm referring to Ezekiel 20:32-33, which I cited in my July 16 post.

Arunma, you posted:

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Judaism isn't "Christianity minus Jesus."

Correct! We'll give you a (kosher, of course!) chocolate chip cookie!

Montalban, that there is reward-and-punishment in the next world is a cardinal belief of our faith (see http://www.ou.org/torah/rambam.htm). The mechanics of said reward-and-punishment gets very little press. I guess that we leave those details to God. About Gehenna, see http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm#Gan.

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv

ServantofTheOne · Jul 20, 2005

"I know Islam has the death penalty and eternal damnation for apostates"

has anyone passed a death sentence on you?

in shariah islamic law only the khalifa can implement death sentences on apostates.
in a khalifa political system apostasy is tantamount to treason against God and against the state. When one becomes a muslim they submit themselves to the Creator willingly. if he takes back this promise or oath, do you think it will be a light matter? This is a serious issue. No one is forcing one to become a muslim, they can take all the time they want to make sure they want to become muslim. once they do they have a binding commitment to God.

what is the punishment for US citizens who pledge to uphold and protect the constitution of the US, but then turn around and spy for a foriegn government??? isn't it the death penalty?

vajradhara · Jul 20, 2005

Namaste Canadian,

thank you for the post.

my tradition has a pretty different view towards these things. it is quite possible that a monk, for instance, could break their vows and no longer be a monk... however, they could still be a Buddhist

heck... you could even leave the tradition and still be a "buddhist" since what determines if one is a Buddhist or not, isn't really what they say.. rather, it is more in what a being actually does.

of course... there is a formalized process for joining the Sangha and all of that... but, this is not required.

more to the point, perhaps, is that my tradition does not want anyone to uphold it's teachings without first testing them for themselves to determine if they are beneficial or not. quite unlike the theistic faiths that one encounters.

metta,

~v

S Walch · Jul 20, 2005

ServantofTheOne said:
"I know Islam has the death penalty and eternal damnation for apostates"

has anyone passed a death sentence on you?

in shariah islamic law only the khalifa can implement death sentences on apostates.
in a khalifa political system apostasy is tantamount to treason against God and against the state. When one becomes a muslim they submit themselves to the Creator willingly. if he takes back this promise or oath, do you think it will be a light matter? This is a serious issue. No one is forcing one to become a muslim, they can take all the time they want to make sure they want to become muslim. once they do they have a binding commitment to God.

what is the punishment for US citizens who pledge to uphold and protect the constitution of the US, but then turn around and spy for a foriegn government??? isn't it the death penalty?

The difference is, The USA isn't a religion, unlike Islam, which is.

Arthra · Jul 20, 2005

maladroit said:
i have a question about baha'ism although it may be completely off topic: from what i understand, its a very enclusive religion that accepts all sorts of people... except... it seems to exclude the exclusionists, which contradicts itself... could you perhaps explain?

Thanks Maladroit for your questions...

I just returned today from my vacation and apologise if my response is tardy...

Usually today people refer to my faith as the "Baha'i Faith" rather than "Bahaism"...

Yes your correct in that Baha'is are very accepting people and there are quite a variety of backgrounds of people in most Baha'i communities....

Your comment:

"...it seems to exclude the exclusionists, which contradicts itself... could you perhaps explain?"

I'm unsure what source you have for this but let me respond that when someone becomes a Baha'i they are joining a faith whose goal is to eliminate prejudice. So do we accept prejudiced people? Yes, if they will work on eliminating the prejudices... and i would say many people have prejudices. Our goal is to eliminate these prejudices.

There is an acculturation in becoming a Baha'i that takes some people a while. They are not all Baha'is immediately...but usually they go through a process of learning.

Hope that answers your question!

- Art

InnerPhyre · Jul 20, 2005

ServantofTheOne said:
what is the punishment for US citizens who pledge to uphold and protect the constitution of the US, but then turn around and spy for a foriegn government??? isn't it the death penalty?

Only in wartime

Montalban · Jul 20, 2005

ServantofTheOne said:
"I know Islam has the death penalty and eternal damnation for apostates"

has anyone passed a death sentence on you?

That's the funniest post I've read in ages!

Eponine · Jul 20, 2005

Montalban said:
Here's a complete list of Asatru followers:

That was uncalled for and blatantly untrue.

Mushroom · Jul 20, 2005

The punishment for deciding to no longer be a deist is that you are no longer a deist until you decide to be a deist once again .

little_lily613 · Jul 20, 2005

In Judaism, there are two paths, one for the Jew and one for the Gentile. The Jewish path consists of following the 613 mitzvos (commandments) found within Torah. One of the biggest sins of all is that of idolatry (which is one of only three mitzvos you must DIE for rather than commit the sin). When a Jew leaves Judaism for ANY other religion, they are considered apostates. They lose their rights as Jews. For example, they cannot be called up to the Torah or participate in synagogue services. They cannot marry in the synagogue or be buried in a Jewish cemetary. They are, however, still Jews and can make teshuva by repenting and returning to the faith of Torah. They then become fully able to participate in the Jewish life again. As for in the afterlife, well, Judaism teaches that the righteous of all nations have a share in the world to come. Righteous Jews are Jews who follow the mitzvos in the Torah. Righteous Gentiles are Gentiles who follow the 7 Laws of Noach. I cannot say specifically who has a share in the World to Come. G~d is the only judge, and it is our job while here to draw fellow Jews to Torah and be a light unto the nations--not to judge the fate of anyone's soul. Shalom and G~d bless,
~Little_Lily613~

ServantofTheOne · Jul 21, 2005

S Walch said:
The difference is, The USA isn't a religion, unlike Islam, which is.

indeed, islam is also a political system as well as an economic system and the rich and comprehensive islamic shariah has codified laws regarding such situations like death penalty for apostasy which is considered treason. Only the khalifah has the authority to pass any death sentence in this matter.

so for practical purpose there is no death penalty for converting away from islam, unless you live in the khalifah state, and you openly and publicly renounce your islam, even after that you are supposed to be given an opportunity to reconsider. But for today as many of you have said there are many who turn away from islam for various reasons, how many death sentences has been passed?? 0.

for those who turn away from islam, once accepting it, death penalty should be the least of their problems, they will have to answer to their Creator.

islam doesn't render "unto ceasor what is ceaser's"... In islam only the Creator can be the source of legislation, we as humans are the viceroy of God on earth, its our responsibility to live by and implement what God legislated for us, the natural way, the islamic way.

even though there is no khalifah at the moment, billion+ muslims in the world many of whom chooses to do so implement the islamic law in their personal lives which regulates all of their actions whether it be social, economic, or political.

Galilee · Jul 21, 2005

ServantofTheOne said:
indeed, islam is also a political system as well as an economic system and the rich and comprehensive islamic shariah has codified laws regarding such situations like death penalty for apostasy which is considered treason. Only the khalifah has the authority to pass any death sentence in this matter.

and that's what "Farag Fudah", the egyptian intellectual talked about in his book "the hidden truth".
he showed how islam can't be a policitcal or economical system.
and what was the result ?
he got killed by people from an islamic movement in egypt. and people from Al-Azhar stated that he (farag) got only himself to blame for it !!

ServantofTheOne · Jul 21, 2005

well the fact that the prophet Muhammad(pbuh) established a society and implemented the laws of islam is more than enough proof that islam is in fact a complete system no matter what anyones opinion's say.

and it was this system that allow and protected the coptic christians to continue as a community, what do you think the crusaders would have done to the copts if they ruled over them?? either accept their version christianity or be put to death. How long did the coptic christians live within the realm of political and economic islamic structure?

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