An honest question

I've heard this often said...

"Why would an all loving-all good God send people to hell because they reject him?"

My question is why would anybody reject an all-loving-all good God?

Perhaps if they don't know him.

The analogy I would use since it is current is a bit like wondering why (some of) the Iraqi people will reject the invasion force that is coming to liberate and save them?
Maybe because their experience is not good, perhaps they had relatives which were killed in the last Gulf war; women and children blown up by the bunker buster bomb.

Is God self evident?
And even if he is, what can we really knoiw of his nature (essence)?
If God is self evident why do we need to spread the Word? ( It should be there for all to see)
Look at the problems we have with the God of the Bible just now. One look through the forums gives us an idea of the diversity of opinion even among Christians.

David

David, using your Iraqi analogy...

If one Iraqi citizen saw their son tortured by Saddam's thugs, that person would be calling for everyone to pick up arms and beg for somebody to do something. Some will believe him and join in the fight and some will reject his cries. Are the people who reject the notion that Saddam is capable of such horror wrong or right? They didn't actually see Saddam's cronies torture their fellow man's son but they heard the man who saw what happened with his own eyes.

8th February 2003 at 11:52 PM Suit of Lights said this in Post #1 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=641879#post641879)
And what of those who haven't heard of Christianity?

So, please, among Christians, what is the general consensus here? Is there one?

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Well, the Bible actually mentions this in passing: Jesus says that, if a slave knows what his master wants, and doesn't do it, he'll be beaten severely, but if he doesn't know, he won't be beaten as severely. (I don't think this is an endorsement of the practice, just a pragmatic observation.) We all know that ignorance *is* a moral defense, even if it's not a legal defense.

I think it is entirely possible to have heard the words and not heard the message, in which case, I think you probably get a bit of a pass. I don't know.

There's a lot of finicky stuff in with the "unbelievers" concept; keep in mind, as of the writing, most of the "unbelievers" would have been those actively worshipping other gods. Furthermore, I've never been able to get a clear and unambiguous answer to the "what exactly is it you need to believe" question. (e.g., does it matter if you think His name was Jesus, or Yeshua? How about Jesu? Does it matter if you have an accent? What if you think He was a stonemason, not a carpenter? What if you think He came to tell us the gospel, but that His death wasn't what freed us from sin, but some other aspect of His ministry? There are millions of things people could disagree about.)

So, I don't really have any clear idea. I believe I have come to understand roughly what God wants of me, and I'll do it, and trust Him to sort out the details.

Yesterday at 04:08 PM the outlaw said this in Post #23

David, using your Iraqi analogy...

If one Iraqi citizen saw their son tortured by Saddam's thugs, that person would be calling for everyone to pick up arms and beg for somebody to do something. Some will believe him and join in the fight and some will reject his cries. Are the people who reject the notion that Saddam is capable of such horror wrong or right? They didn't actually see Saddam's cronies torture their fellow man's son but they heard the man who saw what happened with his own eyes.

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Hi Outlaw,

I think you are answering a different question here, but the analogy works just the same.

Your query was "why would people reject an all loving good God"

My analogy was to try and show that not all people see God as good and loving.In your analogy if we substitute God for Saddam, then you can see how there are people who have no faith.

I have an aunt who tragically lost a son at 7 years of age. She used to be a practising Christian but lost her faith, and she blames God.

In her eyes, God brought her into the world and she has suffered the greatest pain there is in losing a child. God to my aunt is therefore a God of hurt, pain and loss.

This was my point.

David

Dear SOL,

I have a NKJV Bible. In Revelation 14:6 it says,  "then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth- to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people- saying with a loud voice, " Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water."  Also Rev. 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and they have no rest day or night....

 

This to me says that at the "end times" everyone will be able to hear of the gospel so not hearing about it can be no excuse. And the torment will go on FOREVER AND EVER, DAY AND NIGHT WITH NO REST. How much much clearer can that be? I pray you change you mind soon and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. You never know when later may be too late.

Ok, David. I thought that was what you may have been saying but my question is still relevant to those that ask why a loving God would send people who reject him to hell? Why reject a loving God?

I am sorry for your aunt's loss but a similar thing happened to Rachel Joy Scott's parents. (one of the Columbine victims) And they acknowledged it as a spiritual event and the whole thing brought them(and many others) closer to God. I won't go into trying to explain God's ways because I'm not God but I believe he has a plan and regardless of how out of whack this world may seem, God's plan is supreme...whether we can see what the long term effect is or not.

seebs, me and a coworker just had that conversation. He basically has a problem with Christianity because he can't see how Christianity can claim a Buddhist(or whatever) will burn in hell simply because they never heard the Gospel of Christ. I admit I have a hard time understanding this concept because if you are born in a Buddhist(etc.) environment and never get the oppurtunity to hear the Gospel, how will God judge you? I believe he is a fair God and this was the answer I gave my friend. I used Matt. 24:14(I believe) but that has still bugged me somewhat. I guess this is an answer to David's question as to why Christians should tell people about Christ? Sure, God could have made it easier by popping in every 30 years or so, but remember, there are some people today that don't believe we walked on the moon....that don't believe Saddam has weapons of mass destruction....that don't believe Baghdad has terrorist training camps...etc...etc. The premise of Christianity is that God did "pop" in and showed us exactly how to live and gave us a way back to him. He also left it up to the people that saw him to preserve that part of history. Many people see Christianity(the religion) as an attempt to "control" the masses. The case can be made that the "religion" has had it's dark moments but Christ didn't come to establish a "religion"....He came to establish a relationship.

Also, seebs, my friend posed this question...which after I thought about it for a second, was kind of amusing in a sense...He said,

"Well, when you die, maybe God presents the Gospel to you if you've never heard it...but how long would he give you to make that decision? 5 minutes....30 miutes...."

I thought for about 2 seconds and said,

"You just died and God told you the Gospel was the way to salvation...Would you really have to "think" about it?"

How is it fair that God makes some people skeptical?

It is in their nature to question before accepting. They have no choice as to change their personality.

People have only so much 'freewil'. you can't choose your parents, your nationality and to some degree your opinions and culture. People born in a fundamentalist muslim country probably don't even know about christianity, they can't choose to believe in Jesus because they simply don't know. These people can't be held responsible for their lack of knowledge. It's just not fair.

Okay, I'll kick in my piece.

John 10:16 Says... I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

I've always taken this to mean that Jesus intends to include those who are not part of the "fold" that we know as Christianity. I believe in Hell, but only for those who would prefer it to Heaven. (Yes, I'm sure those folks exist who'd rather be king in hell than a child in heaven...)

Jeff K

7th March 2003 at 04:11 PM the outlaw said this in Post #27

Ok, David. I thought that was what you may have been saying but my question is still relevant to those that ask why a loving God would send people who reject him to hell? Why reject a loving God?

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I have actually put a similiar response on another post. I also feel that when we meet God face to face that we will not be able to resist his love, but this will be at the final judgement(I hope)

David 

The problem with that could be what C.S. Lewis wrote about in Mere Christianity. This applies to those who have heard "The Gospel" and have rejected it all of their "natural" lives.

This is the excerpt...Lewis is referring to the Final judgment...

"...but what is the good of saying you are on his side then, when you see the whole natural universe melting away like a dream and something else-something it never entered your head to conceive-comes crashing in; something so beautiful to some of us and so terrible to others that none of us will have any choice left? For this time it will be God without disguise; something so overwhelming that it will strike either irresistable love or irresistible horror into every creature. It will be too late then to choose your side. There is no use saying you choose to lie down when it becomes impossible to stand up. That will not be the time for choosing: it will be the time when we discover which side we really have chosen, whether we realized it before or not."

I don't know how God will judge those people that never do hear the Gospel, but for the people who have heard...he was pretty clear. I believe God will judge everyone fairly and everyone who gets judged will know God has judged them fairly.

btw, If you haven't read Mere Christianity, it is a very good read...

Bless ya all,

I was wandering by and just have to add the WORD of GOD to this post to allow the WORD of GOD and HIS wisdom (I have none of "my" own) So He can clear up some "maybes" that "were stated" further back....

(this verse you can't ware out using it to much.... as it was just posted in another forum... OH well Here is GOD....AGAIN....)

GOD (who can’t lie and we have HIS WORD on it)…. says……2 Thessalonians 2: 10-13…..
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (delivered)
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: (GOD has to allow “them a strong delusion because “they loved “their sin.”)
12 That they all might be who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (…but had pleasure in unholiness / sin?)
13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Choose to believe the truth.... or the lie.... Chose of the WORD of GOD or the opposer....the lie....ie... unrighteousness has power equal or greater than that of the power of HOLINESS.... WRONG Choose!.... depart from HIM you who "continued to sin" because you "loved not the truth!

GOD has no other choose but to allow them who "believe a lie." because they took "pleasure in unrighteousness"

I have been "debating" with Dennis Mckinseys crew ( you must surely know of him) the last 2 months and have come to the conclusion that 99% of atheists dont really want an answer.
I assume there is a 99% chance that you dont want one as well.

But just in case;

God set forth rules when He created Adam and Eve.
They blew it and were punished.

God set forth rules in the Levitical Law for the Jews
The Jews blew it and are being punished even today as they are partially hardened as Romans states.

God, in His love for us, sent His Son to pay for our sins so we dont have to pay the price ourselves.

ARE YOU GOING TO BLOW IT?
Are you going to be on the list above?

You and other atheists can "debate" until your blue in the face and sound as intelligent as you please and it changes NOTHING about the truth.

Any who "back off" are giving you "another Gospel".


Joh 14:6 "Jesus said to him, I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. [color=redNo one comes to the Father except through Me". [/color]

Joh 6:44 "No one is able to come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day."


You came in here with a purpose. What was it really?
Do you have a real desire to know or are you playing word games as your brethren do?


Suit of Lights:
"As an atheist, I have been in many debates with people about religion, mainly Christians. I have yet to receive a solid answer to this question: where do atheists go when they die? "

FOC: If you die without repenting of your sins, YOU WILL END UP IN HELL. PERIOD.

"Most Christians will concede that I will go to Hell, but a good percentage of them will back off when I point out both the ridiculous nature of this assertion and its inherent backwardness."

FOC: Son, God make the rules and as "rediculous" as they are to you, they are His rules and in the end you WILL abide by them

"To me, a god that accepts a person due to their good heart and intentions in life would be far more believable than one who selfishly turns down well meaning people simply because they take issue with his existence. "

FOC: Key words "To me". So in other words reality changes to YOUR whims. God only exists IF YOU allow Him to.

"Those who back off will usually say that it is my choice to become an atheist, so I am reaping what I sow. This is akin to a politician holding a gun to my head, and threatening to pull the trigger if I don't cast my ballot for him. If I cast my ballot for the opposition, it's my fault?"

FOC: Yes. Its your fault. you have a choice right now to ask God to forgive your trespasses against Him and accept the salvation Jesus offered through His death. OR you can choose to ignore the warning. Your choice. So which is it?

"And what of those who haven't heard of Christianity?

So, please, among Christians, what is the general consensus here? Is there one?"

FOC: There is a gun to your head, it called HELL.
And ANY who die without Jesus Christ as therir saviour WILL be in that terrible place for eternity.

Suit Of Lights;

I PERSONALLY think that after you die; you will go to whatever after life you believe in. If you are atheist, then most likely **Poof** you are gone! But how can you go to heaven, or hell, if you do not believe in either?!

Those are just my thoughts... from being a non christian for MANY years

Yesterday at 11:06 PM JacqueB said this in Post #35

Suit Of Lights;

I PERSONALLY think that after you die; you will go to whatever after life you believe in. If you are atheist, then most likely **Poof** you are gone! But how can you go to heaven, or hell, if you do not believe in either?!

Those are just my thoughts... from being a non christian for MANY years

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No offense, but that kind of advice is just plain nuts.

You're saying there is NO truth?
Reality will change based on what one believes?

This is NOT Never-Never Land.
It is a very serious battle for peoples souls.

In all honesty, and please dont be offended too much, you really shouldn't be trying to teach anyone anything unless you stand for SOMETHING.

That Hocus-Pocus belief of yours may very well get many people into a place that they may wish they could get out of.