An atheists world

Lethe · Aug 20, 2013

Do you need to know all possible natural explanations for an event, in order to declare it a miracle?

Because clearly when an emergency crew is extracting a victim from a vehicle and a priest comes along and tosses some water and mutters some words, clearly the likely explanation is that it was magic and not the emergency crew that saved the victim.

Oh, and the likely explanation when the priest "disappears," is that clearly he was a dead saint who miraculously appeared to perform another miracle and not simply, walking back to his car.

Valiantis · Aug 20, 2013

gradyll said:
miracles and prophecy validate the Bible

Meanwhile snake oil and faith healing take your money, how sweet it is.

createdtoworship · Aug 20, 2013

Skaloop said:
'Before' requires the passage of time, which means that time had to have already existed. "Before the beginning of time" is as meaningless as being north of the north pole, or being east of the equator, or being below the bottom of the hole yer in.

Isaiah 57:15

New King James Version (NKJV)

15 For thus says the High and Lofty One
Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy:

if He inhabits eternity, He is obviously outside of time.

TheBeardedDude · Aug 20, 2013

Lethe said:
Because clearly when an emergency crew is extracting a victim from a vehicle and a priest comes along and tosses some water and mutters some words, clearly the likely explanation is that it was magic and not the emergency crew that saved the victim.

One could use an even less emotional example.

A person's cancer goes into remission after medical treatment (originally diagnosed as terminal). The patient asks the doctor to explain and he is unable. The patient claims it a miracle. This is a non sequitor.

Skaloop · Aug 20, 2013

gradyll said:
Isaiah 57:15

New King James Version (NKJV)

15 For thus says the High and Lofty One
Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy:

if He inhabits eternity, He is obviously outside of time.

Eternity is a measure of time.

Skaloop · Aug 20, 2013

gradyll said:
miracles and prophecy validate the Bible
how about this one it's my fav!

Over Seven Centuries before the birth of Christ God told the Prophet Isaiah that the time span between the Commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem and the coming of the Messiah would be exactly 476* years. (*seven=heptid). We know from any historical record that the order was in fact issued on March 14, 445B.C. When you add 173,880 days (476yrs) to the 14th of March, 445B.C. you come to April 6, A.D.32. Palm Sunday, The exact day Jesus entered triumphantly and openly into Jerusalem. [Predicted: Daniel 9:25/ Fulfilled: Luke 23:18]

? B.C. 445 A.D. 32 = 476 years (B.C. 1 to A.D. 1 = 1 yr.)
476 X 365 = 173,740 days
Add for leap years = 116 days
Mar. 14 to Apr. 6 = + 24 days (inclusive)
= 173,880

for a argument for a 360 day year see link below:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7765237-19/#post63952880

Interesting that you are basing those things on the Gregorian calendar which didn't yet exist.

createdtoworship · Aug 20, 2013

Skaloop said:
Interesting that you are basing those things on the Gregorian calendar which didn't yet exist.

hence the link at the bottom, arguing for a 360 day calander year...

createdtoworship · Aug 20, 2013

Skaloop said:
Eternity is a measure of time.

ok, then God inhabits all of time at once. Still it makes the same point.

TheBeardedDude · Aug 20, 2013

gradyll said:
ok, then God inhabits all of time at once. Still it makes the same point.

Then why choose one finite piece of it to reveal himself?

Skaloop · Aug 20, 2013

gradyll said:
hence the link at the bottom, arguing for a 360 day calander year...

So a different number of days than a contemporary calendar, at a time when the contemporary names and durations of months did not exist, allows one to be as specific as March 14th and April 6th? Heck, Sunday didn't exist at the time; how could there be a Palm Sunday on April 6th at all at that time?

Herman Hedning · Aug 20, 2013

gradyll said:
hence the link at the bottom, arguing for a 360 day calander year...

And here's a link arguing against 360-day years and against Daniel as prophetic in general: The Failure of Daniel's Prophecies

Check.

createdtoworship · Aug 20, 2013

Skaloop said:
So a different number of days than a contemporary calendar, at a time when the contemporary names and durations of months did not exist, allows one to be as specific as March 14th and April 6th? Heck, Sunday didn't exist at the time; how could there be a Palm Sunday on April 6th at all at that time?

thats the difference between western and eastern orthodox (3/14 and 4/6)

the original dates are on the graphs I posted.

Sabbath day and days before and after sabbath did in fact exist at the time.

createdtoworship · Aug 20, 2013

TheBeardedDude said:
Then why choose one finite piece of it to reveal himself?

why not?

TheBeardedDude · Aug 20, 2013

gradyll said:
why not?

It makes him indistinguishable from any average traveling preacher during the bronze age middle east.

Lethe · Aug 20, 2013

It makes him indistinguishable from any average traveling preacher during the ironage middle east.

Remember. The Romans were there.

TheBeardedDude · Aug 20, 2013

Lethe said:
Remember. The Romans were there.

I stand corrected.

biggles53 · Aug 20, 2013

RedRover said:
He could have know if He wanted to know. But He can also choose NOT to know what choice your going to make. Either way, first you want to blame me, now you want to blame God. What you need to do is maybe quit trying to peddle the blame off onto others. Your not going to get anywhere until you start to take a little bit of responsibility for yourself in life.

Excuse me.....?? I'm not the one who claims that all the responsibilities for my 'sins' can be absolved by merely adopting a belief....!

I take full responsibility for ALL my actions, good, bad or indifferent....

Now....I wondered how long it would take before someone became desperate enough to dredge up one of these 'god chooses not to see' arguments........desperate, desperate, desperate....!

Let me guess.....your god puts its celestial hand over its eyes, but kinda peeks a little through its fingers....!?

I do not know what "omniscience" is. I have never seen that word in the Bible.

Happy to educate you....it refers to being 'all-seeing'.......one of the attributes which you lot claim that your god possesses...

biggles53 · Aug 20, 2013

gradyll said:
not part of the design, because doing the wrong thing is an absence of Good, not a positive character trait that would be in need of creation. Besides there is still free will to account for.

No, free will doesn't exist in the presence of an all-seeing, all-knowing entity...

Besides which, I didn't say that a creator god MADE us do the wrong thing....I said it obviously constructed us in such a way that we are CAPABLE of doing the wrong thing.....if it hadn't wanted that to be part of our nature, it could have installed some form of 'firewall' in us to prevent us from 'sinning'.......it didn't, so it must have been content for its creation to be put in that position of being able to be tempted...

yes

yes

well seeing your first premise fails, the rest of your argument simply doesn't follow, as I see God as graceous and kind.

So you see, my premise holds firm...and then you have confirmed the rest of the argument which leads to the inescapable conclusion.......the god which you say we should worship is a cruel, sadistic beast which would use its creation as mere playthings.....

biggles53 · Aug 20, 2013

gradyll said:
miracles and prophecy validate the Bible
how about this one it's my fav!

Over Seven Centuries before the birth of Christ God told the Prophet Isaiah that the time span between the Commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem and the coming of the Messiah would be exactly 476* years. (*seven=heptid). We know from any historical record that the order was in fact issued on March 14, 445B.C. When you add 173,880 days (476yrs) to the 14th of March, 445B.C. you come to April 6, A.D.32. Palm Sunday, The exact day Jesus entered triumphantly and openly into Jerusalem. [Predicted: Daniel 9:25/ Fulfilled: Luke 23:18]

 B.C. 445 A.D. 32 = 476 years (B.C. 1 to A.D. 1 = 1 yr.)
476 X 365 = 173,740 days
Add for leap years = 116 days
Mar. 14 to Apr. 6 = + 24 days (inclusive)
= 173,880

for a argument for a 360 day year see link below:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7765237-19/#post63952880

Ummmmmm........you do realise that the supposed fulfilment of that prophecy was recorded after the event....!? That is, Luke was written well after the time that those events had taken place. What was to stop the writer simply inventing the date that Jesus was supposed to enter Jerusalem, just so the prophecy would ring true...? Outside of the Bible, what other evidence exists for this record...?

createdtoworship · Aug 20, 2013

biggles53 said:
Ummmmmm........you do realise that the supposed fulfilment of that prophecy was recorded after the event....!? That is, Luke was written well after the time that those events had taken place. What was to stop the writer simply inventing the date that Jesus was supposed to enter Jerusalem, just so the prophecy would ring true...? Outside of the Bible, what other evidence exists for this record...?

ok, so you have a question about the authenticity of lukes Gospel. So that would be changing the bars, and the subject of prophecy to a study in lower criticism.

An atheists world

Well-Known Member

Valiantis

Guest

In the grip of grace

The Fossil Dude(tm)

Agnostic atheist, pro-choice anti-abortion

Agnostic atheist, pro-choice anti-abortion

In the grip of grace

In the grip of grace

The Fossil Dude(tm)

Agnostic atheist, pro-choice anti-abortion

Hiking is fun

In the grip of grace

In the grip of grace

The Fossil Dude(tm)

Well-Known Member

The Fossil Dude(tm)

Junior Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

In the grip of grace

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency