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AngCath

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I have a quick question about Amyraldianism. From the reading I have done, this was a doctrinal approach that originated in French Reformed (Huguenot) circles. Some things I've read say it was a response to Arminianism and others say it is actually an approximation of Lutheran soteriology.

Anyway, are there Amyraldian churches/denominations or is it only maintained by individuals? Is it even tolerated among Reformed believers today?
 

hedrick

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Others here are more interested in scholastic Reformed thought, and will know more details. But my observation is that there has been continuing interest within the broad Reformed family in some kind of universal love and desire to save all. For a clear sign of that, consider the modifications added to Westminster in 1903 by the Presbyterian Church:

"First, with reference to Chapter III of the Confession of Faith: that concerning those who are saved in Christ, the doctrine of God’s eter- nal decree is held in harmony with the doctrine of his love to all mankind, his gift of his Son to be the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, and his readiness to bestow his saving grace on all who seek it; that concerning those who perish, the doctrine of God’s eternal decree is held in harmony with the doctrine that God desires not the death of any sinner, but has provided in Christ a salvation sufficient for all, adapted to all, and freely offered in the gospel to all; that men are fully responsible for their treatment of God’s gracious offer; that his decree hinders no man from accepting that offer; and that no man is condemned ex- cept on the ground of his sin."

But many other writers have had similar concepts. It's not so clear that it is right to call all of this Amyrauldism.

But there's a more basic question. What is Amyraudlism and how does it differ from orthodox Calvinism? It appears that Amyrauld did not actually believe that God made two decisions. Both the conditional and unconditional were part of his single plan. Orthodox Calvinism notes that God does not save and damn people by his bare decree. He works through secondary causes, so that the elect are justified by faith, and the damned by rejecting it. So there really are two perspectives. According to one, salvation is offered to any who have faith, according to the other, God elects certain people to faith. He doesn't save people independent of their having faith, but rather elects certain to be adopted in Christ, and to develop faith. It is far from clear to me that Amyrauld intended anything other than that. See e.g. Calvin and Calvinism » Blog Archive » Amyraut and Testard and the Synod of Alancon on ‘Conditional Will,’ ‘Conditional Decree,’ and ‘Conditional Predestination’.

My personal view is related to all of this, but probably not the same:

In my view what we see in Scripture is that God wants to redeem the world, but that he has chosen to do it through particular people: Israel and then the Church. So there is pretty clearly election going on, but I think the overall context is, as Rom 11:32 says, a goal of redeeming the whole world (though I'm certainly not claiming that every individual will be saved, nor that God's plan includes such a thing).

I'm not sure, however, that we can go much beyond that, and I'm skeptical of all the schemes that claim to.
 
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JM

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Amyraldism, hypo-calvinism and hypothetical universalism are oftren used interchangeable. I would say Dabney and Shedd were both hypo-calvinists, affirming full Calvinism on one hand, while maintaining a hypothetical atonement on the other. "Marrowism" is very popular among the Presbyterians due to the work The Marrow of Modern Divinity.

The Trinity Foundation - A History of Hypo-Calvinism
[FONT=”Arial,]Amyraldianism[/FONT]
[FONT=”Arial,]Perversions of Calvinism have existed for centuries. In 1634, just 15 years after the Synod of Dort, a professing Calvinist named Moise Amyraut (Amyraldus) wrote his “Treatise on Predestination” in which he stated that “The sacrifice which Jesus Christ offered was equally for all; and the salvation which He received from His Father, in the sanctification of the spirit and the glorification of the body, was destined equally for all-provided the necessary disposition for receiving it were equal.”3 His treatise systematized what he had been taught at the Theological School at Saumer, France; he was particularly influenced by a professor by the name of John Cameron, who, according to George Smeaton, “propounded the theory of hypothetic universalism; that is, that God wills the salvation of all men, on condition of faith, and that Christ’s death was for all men, on condition of faith.”4 Smeaton goes on to describe what has come to be known as Amyraldianism: “Its advocates speak of a universal decree in which God was supposed to have given Christ as a Mediator for the whole human race; and of a special decree, in which God, foreseeing that no one would believe in his unaided strength, was supposed to have elected some to receive the gift of faith.”5 Further, according to B. B. Warfield, this theory said that “God gave His Son to die for all men, alike and equally; and at the same time . . . declare[d] that when He gave His son to die, He already fully intended that His death should not avail for all men alike and equally.”[/FONT]http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=161#sthash.ejbHYe2A.dpuf
 
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hedrick

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My sense is that the issue is exegetical. Amyrault's basic assumptions are the same as most Calvinists: That God saves people through faith. That is, God predestines people to salvation by predestining them to faith. Justification is by faith. Anyone with faith will be saved.

I believe it's unobjectionable for a Calvinist to say that anyone with faith is saved. I think what raises the problem is that rather than "anyone with faith" he says "everyone, conditioned on faith." Hence the "hypothetical universalism."

My suspicion is that he picked a slightly odd way of conceptualizing it for exegetical reasons. "And it is forth is very reason that the same Scripture which teaches us so eloquently that Christ died universally for all the world, speaks sometimes in such manner that it seems to approach saying that he died for the small number elected to faith only, as if he had suffered only for those who feel the fruit of his death and not for those whose own unbelief renders this death frustrated."

Scripture speaks of God wanting all to be saved enough times that we have to deal with it. He has chosen to say that implicit in all of those statements is a condition, that he wants all to be saved conditional on faith. The mainstream approach seems to be to say that in all of those passages the writer was speaking of "all kinds of persons" or in some other way to avoid the plain reading of the text. Both approaches have disadvantages, but Amyrault's seems at least as good to me. I don't see that "everyone, conditioned on faith" actually differs in effect from the usual way of putting things.

Calvin and Calvinism » Blog Archive » Amyraut on “Conditional Predestination”
 
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twin1954

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To say that God intended to save everyone conditioned on faith and then to say that the only ones who have faith are those chosen in election is a contradiction that cannot be resolved. It is no different than the Arminian view that salvation is conditioned on foreseen faith. Both make salvation to be dependent on something in man. The Scriptures clearly declare, in their entirety, that salvation is of God apart from man. That is why the so-called plain reading of the text apart from a grasp of the teaching of the whole of Scriptures on any subject is to not grasp the true meaning of the text. Many herecies are based in a "plain reading of the text."
 
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hedrick

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"All, conditioned on faith" and "God determines who satisfies the condition" don't contradict in any way I can see.

[I should note that I'm not an Amyrauldian.]
 
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JM

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Luk_2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

Did the Chinese pay tax to Caesar? Nope.

We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. (1Jn 5:19)

Does that mean the church is under the power of the evil one? Nope.

To understand the different meanings of the word kosmos see Books and Pamphlets by A.W. Pink-The Meaning of "KOSMOS" in John 3:16
 
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twin1954

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"All, conditioned on faith" and "God determines who satisfies the condition" don't contradict in any way I can see.

[I should note that I'm not an Amyrauldian.]

How can the intention of saving all in any way not contradict the simple fact that He determines a specific number whom He will save? You changing the words around doesn't mitigate the result. Either He intends to save all, based on a condition or not, or He doesn't. His determining who satisfies the condition necessarily denies that He intends or wants to save all. If He had intended or wants to save all then all would be saved. The whole concept, boiled down, makes God either to be impotent to save those He wants to save or unwilling to save those He wants to save. Moreover it lays the condition in the hands of men to meet which puts salvation in the hands of men instead of Christ. Where we differ I think is that faith is not a condition of salvation but a result of it. We believe because Christ lived and died in our place as the Surety and Substitute for His people.
 
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hedrick

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How can the intention of saving all in any way not contradict the simple fact that He determines a specific number whom He will save? You changing the words around doesn't mitigate the result.

Saving all conditioned on belief means the only ones who are actually saved are those who believe. That's what "conditioned" means. That's a specific number.
 
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twin1954

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Saving all conditioned on belief means the only ones who are actually saved are those who believe. That's what "conditioned" means. That's a specific number.
Exactly! Which. of course, is my point. If He intends a specific number the all is qualified by that number. If, as the Amyaradian view posits, that is everybody in the world then you have a contradiction that cannot be overcome. If Christ died for the whole world, as in every person in the world, then either He is unable to save some or unwilling to. Either way He doesn't do what He intends and cannot be trusted.
 
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hedrick

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The Armyrauldian view does *not* posit that all qualified by faith is everybody. They specifically say that God gives faith to only sone people.

Whether all qualified by faith is a sensible way to put things is another question. I've already said I'm not Amyrauldian. However it does have the virtue of providing a reasonable basis for exegesis. You could reasonably justify their view by saying "God says in a number of place that God wants to save everyone. We believe that this should be understood as having an implicit condition limiting it to those with faith." I think that's as good an understanding as any I've seen from the 16th and 17th Cent (or modern conservative Calvinists). I'm not quite ready to articulate a view of my own.
 
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twin1954

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You seem to be ignoring or just missing my argument. Condition or no condition they still, by your own description, must deal with the controdiction of God not saving all when He wants to even though He is able to. Either He wants to save all or He doesn't. But it can't be both. The supposed condition makes no difference.
 
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hedrick

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This makes no sense. How does adding a condition not make a difference.
 
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twin1954

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This makes no sense. How does adding a condition not make a difference.
Because the condition is meaningless. If I say I want to give a million dollars to every person in the US and then add a condition to it I really didn't want to give the money to every person in the US at all. I just wanted folks to think I did. We know that is not the case with God so either He wants to save everyone or He doesn't. The Scriptures and experience are clear that He doesn't. That is why the so-called condition is meaningless. You are far to focused on the supposed condition and missing the reality.

The condition is meaningless as well because if it depends on man to meet the condition then we are all lost. If, as the Scriptures teach, that it doesn't depend on man but on Christ and He met all the requirements to save those He chose and the supposed condition is a result and a fruit of His work for us and in us then the condition is moot to us. If God put a condition on salvation and then meets that condition Himself in the person of His Son who save not all men but the elect then the condition makes it very clear that He never intended to save all men.

That is why there are no conditions on salvation. Salvation is always presented in the Scriptures as a gift. There are no conditions with a gift. If there are then it is no longer a gift but that which is earned.
 
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Edward65

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Either He wants to save all or He doesn't. But it can't be both.

I would like to take issue with that. It doesn't have to be that God either wants to save everyone or else He doesn't. It can be both - in fact it is both. I hold that the Scriptures teach that God both desires to save everyone and yet doesn't want to save everyone (because He only elects to save some, not all), and that this apparent contradiction is resolved by holding that there are two wills in God. This is how Luther explained it in The Bondage of the Will. He differentiated between God's revealed will and His hidden will, and argued that whilst God through Christ desired to save everyone, at the same time God in Majesty determined through His hidden will that not everyone should be saved. Here's a snippet from TBOTW where Luther is commenting on Christ's lament over Jerusalem (“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! See, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” Matt. 23:37-39):

The God Incarnate, then, here speaks thus “I would and thou wouldst not!” The God Incarnate, I say, was sent for this purpose that He might desire, speak, do, suffer, and offer unto all, all things that are necessary unto salvation, although He should offend many, who, being either left or hardened by that secret will of Majesty, should not receive Him thus desiring, speaking, doing, and offering: as John i. 5, saith, “The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not.” And again, “He came unto His own, and His own received Him not.” It belongs also to this same God Incarnate, to weep, to lament, and to sigh over the perdition of the wicked, even while that will of Majesty, from purpose, leaves and reprobates some, that they might perish. Nor does it become us to inquire why He does so, but to revere that God who can do, and wills to do, such things.
(Section LXVI, Cole)


Luther's last sentence above by the way (Nor does it become us to inquire why He does so, but to revere that God who can do, and wills to do, such things.) is Luther commenting on why God chooses to reprobate some, not why He chooses to lament over the perdition of the wicked.
 
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JM

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Very poor example from Matt 23. Jesus, speaking as a man, said he tried to gather his people but was prevented from doing so by the authorities. Jerusalem is used to represent the religious leaders of the day and "thy children" are believers.
_____________________________

Who is ‘Jerusalem’ in the context of this passage? Some folks believe Jerusalem to be in reference to individuals but does the context bare the exegesis? Starting at the beginning of Matthew 23 we find our Lord speaking of the leaders of Jerusalem, the Scribes and Pharisee, those who killed the prophets:

v. 2 “...Pharisees sit in Moses sit...”
v. 6 “...chief seats in the synagogues...”
v. 7 “...Rabbi, Rabbi...”
v. 13 “But woe unto you, Scribes and Pharisees...”
v. 14 “Woe unto you, Scribes and Pharisees...”
v. 15 “Woe unto you, Scribes and Pharisees...”
v. 16 “Woe unto you, ye blind guides...”
etc, etc. I think you get the picture.

Another look at Matt. 23:37, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not

Jesus is not speaking of individuals but the ‘children’ or believers. ‘Jerusalem’ or the leaders and rulers of Jerusalem prevented them from physically coming to Christ. What we do not find is 'thy children' rejecting the Gospel or God desiring to give salvation to every single person who ever lived.

Those Christ would gather are not represented as being unwilling, but not allowed by the ruling class in Jerusalem.

I hope this was of use.
 
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Edward65

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When you say that Jesus was speaking as a man are you meaning that Jesus in His divine nature as the Son of God didn’t also lament over the wickedness of the Jews in killing the prophets? If that’s what you mean would it not follow that Jesus was double-minded and unstable and pulled in two opposite directions by his two natures - human and divine - which is surely untenable.

Also if your interpretation is correct and that Christ is referring to the religious leaders when he referred to “Jerusalem” it doesn’t follow that the children or the ordinary Jews were somehow exonerated. You describe them as “believers” but yet you also say they were prevented from coming to Christ by the ruling class, but in that case they weren’t believers. There are only two classes of people - regenerate and unregenerate - and if they weren’t Christians they were unbelievers and therefore opposed to Christ. Also in view of the fact that the Romans a few years later besieged Jerusalem and killed everyone in it (the Christians having previously left), God in pouring out his wrath on them showed that He didn’t regard them as almost believers (i.e. as not quite believers because of the ruling class), but as thorough unbelievers.

I understand Christ when he lamented over Jerusalem to be expressing sorrow over all the Jews (except of course the true believers) because He genuinely wanted to save everyone as He was aware of their impending doom and destruction.
 
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JM

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To start I do believe in the hypostatic union, that Christ was both fully God and fully man. His role on earth was to come as a suffering servant of God and He did so perfectly.

If that’s what you mean would it not follow that Jesus was double-minded and unstable and pulled in two opposite directions by his two natures - human and divine - which is surely untenable.
I agree. But it is the Arminian who claims God honestly desires something (pulled one way) but can't have it (denies himself).

This would mean God the Father's will in ordaining and electing His people is not according to His desire to save.

The Son's "lament" is misplaced because the Father did not elect all to salvation.

The Holy Spirit's work in regeneration, since not all are regenerated, are not in accordance with God the Son's desire to save all. The Trinity is undone.

Also if your interpretation is correct and that Christ is referring to the religious leaders when he referred to “Jerusalem” it doesn’t follow that the children or the ordinary Jews were somehow exonerated.
Not sure what you mean. No one is exonerated from sin without Christ.

I understand Christ when he lamented over Jerusalem to be expressing sorrow over all the Jews (except of course the true believers) because He genuinely wanted to save everyone as He was aware of their impending doom and destruction.
Tradition is a hard task master to buck. Perhaps John Gill's comments are more helpful:

Nothing is more common in the mouths and writings of the Arminians than this Scripture, which they are ready to produce on every occasion against the doctrines of election and reprobation, particular redemption, and the irresistible power of God in conversion, and in favor of sufficient grace, and of the free-will and power of man,[1] though to very little purpose, as will appear when the following things are observed.

1. That by Jerusalem we are not to understand the city, nor all the inhabitants; but the rulers and governors of it, both civil and ecclesiastical, especially the great Sanhedrim, which was held in it, to whom best belong descriptive characters of killing the prophets and stoning such as were sent to them by God, and who are manifestly distinguished from their children; it being usual to call such who were the heads of the people, either in a civil or ecclesiastical sense, fathers, Acts 7:2, and 22:1, and such who were subjects and disciples, children, 19:44, Matthew 12:27, Isaiah 8:16, 18. Besides, our Lord's discourse, throughout the whole context, is directed to the scribes and Pharisees, the ecclesiastical guides of the people, and to whom the civil governors paid a special regard. Hence it is manifest, that they are not the same persons whom Christ would have gathered, who would not. It is not said, how often would I have gathered you, and you would not, as Dr. Whitby[2] more than once inadvertently cites the text; nor, he would have gathered Jerusalem, and she would not, as the same author[3] transcribes it in another place; nor, he would have gathered them, thy children, and they would not, in which form it is also sometimes[4] expressed by him; but I would have gathered thy children, and ye would not, which observation alone is sufficient to destroy the argument founded on this passage in favor of free-will.

2. That the gathering here spoken of does not design a gathering of the Jews to Christ internally, by the Spirit and grace of God; but a gathering of them to him internally, by and under the ministry of the word, to hear him preach; so as that they might be brought to a conviction of and an assent unto him, as the Messiah; which, though it might have fallen short of saving faith in him, would have been sufficient to have preserved them from temporal ruin, threatened to their city and temple in the following verse—Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: which preservation is signified by the hen gathering her chickens under her wings, and shows that the text has no concern with the controversy about the manner of the operation of God's is grace in conversion; for all those whom Christ would gather in this sense were gathered, notwithstanding all the opposition made by the rulers of the people.

3. That the will of Christ to gather these persons is not to be understood of his divine will, or of his will as God; for who hath resisted his will? This cannot be hindered nor made void; he hath done whatsoever he pleased, but of his human will, or of his will as man; which though not contrary to the divine will but subordinate to it, yet not always the same with it, nor always fulfilled. He speaks here as a man and minister of the circumcision, and expresses a human affection for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and a human wish or will for their temporal good, instances of which human affection and will may be observed in Mark 10:21, Luke 19:41, and 22:42. Besides, this will of gathering the Jews to him was in him, and expressed by him at certain several times, by intervals, and therefore he says, How often would I have gathered, etc. Whereas the divine will is one continued invariable and unchangeable will, is alway the same, and never begins or ceases to be and to which such an expression as this is inapplicable; and therefore this passage of Scripture does not contradict the absolute and sovereign will of God in the distinguishing acts of it, respecting election and reprobation.

4. That the persons whom Christ would have gathered are not represented as being unwilling to be gathered; but their rulers were not willing that they should. The opposition and resistance to the will of Christ. were not made by the people, but by their governors. The common people seemed inclined to attend the ministry of Christ, as appears from the vast crowds which, at different times and places, followed him; but the chief priests and rulers did all they could to hinder the collection of them to him; and their belief in him as the Messiah, by traducing his character, miracles, and doctrines, and by passing an act that whosoever confessed him should be put out of the synagogue; so that the obvious meaning of the text is the same with that of verse 13, where our Lord says, Wo unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in; and consequently is no proof of men's resisting the operations of the Spirit and grace of God, but of obstructions and discouragements thrown in the way of attendance on the external ministry of the word.

5. That in order to set aside and overthrow the doctrines of election, reprobation, and particular redemption, it should be proved that Christ, as God, would have gathered, not Jerusalem and the inhabitants thereof only, but all mankind, even such as are not eventually saved, and that in a spiritual saving way and manner to himself, of which there is not the least intimation in this text; and order to establish the resistibility of God's grace, by the perverse will of man, so as to become of no effect, it should be proved that Christ would have savingly converted these persons, and they would not be converted; and that he bestowed the same grace upon them he does bestow on others who are converted; whereas the sum of this passage lies in these few words, that Christ, as man, out of a compassionate regard for the people of the Jews, to whom he was sent, would have gathered them together under his ministry, and have instructed them in the knowledge f himself as the Messiah; which, if they had only notionally received, would have secured them as chickens under the hen from impending judgments which afterwards fell upon them; but their governors, and not they, would not, that is, would not suffer them to be collected together in such a manner, and hindered all they could, their giving any credit to him as the Messiah; though had it been said and they would not, it would only have been a most sad instance of the perverseness of the will of man, which often opposes his temporal as well as his spiritual good.

ENDNOTES:
[1] See Whitby, p. 13, 77, 162, 204, 222, 358; ed. 2. 13, 76, 158, 199, 216, 349 Remonstr. in Coll. Hag. art. 3. 4. p. 215; Act. et Script. Synodalia circa art. 4. p. 64; Curcell. Relig. Christ. 1. 6, c. 6, sect. 7, p. 370, and c. 13, sect. 5, p. 402; Limborch, 1. 4, c. 13, sect. 7. p. 371.
[2] Whitby, pp. 13, 162, 201; ed. 2. 13, 158, 197.
[3] Ibid. p. 77; ed. 2. 76.
[4] Ibid. p. 222; ed. 2. 216.
 
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